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space between plates

For all the plate variations out there, bubblecap, valved, perforated etc.

space between plates

Postby timmyjane » Sun Mar 10, 2013 2:04 pm

What the general spacing desired between bubble plates?
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Re: space between plates

Postby Tracker » Sun Mar 10, 2013 8:33 pm

May need a few more details mate. My belief would be that the distance would encompass things such as:
1. Column diameter
2. Plate %age available for vapour movement
3. Power input
Plus even a few more that I can't think of straight away.
Bit like : how long is a piece of string? at the moment.


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Re: space between plates

Postby flyingdutchman » Mon Mar 11, 2013 1:42 am

HI TJ,
The answer to your question probably depends on what you are trying to do with it and what diameter column you plan on using. Is it a 4" column a 3" column etc, do you want to make flavored product do you want to make azeotrope etc. You can read through the thread I had on Calculation of minimum column diameter. You might ask why you would read this thread but how big of a column diameter is and what plate spacing you need are a related. You dont have to read how I derive every calculation you can just skip forwards and download the Excel spreadsheet I made (like page 3). Use that to figure out what plate spacing works with which column diameter for the product you want to make. You will notice that it will give you 2 answers. The first is the absolute minimum the second is oversized by 20% you might ask why over sized. My thinking is that I personally wouldnt want to drive a truck that weighs 13 tons over a bridge that was designed to carry exactly 13 tons and no more. In other words bare minimum is bare minimum.
Lastly the plate spacing on that calculator will only go down to 6". This does not mean you cant have less than 6" plate spacings is just that the calculations were never set up to go lower. Others have used less and been very happy. Which means to me that if you use the same column diameter as them and similair run conditions for a similair type product you have a proven design. Venture away from that and you are in new territory.

Good luck! Let me know if you have any questions about the calculator. I may have a new one based some different peoples work that will go smaller but that will take some time.

FD
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Re: space between plates

Postby harley » Sun Mar 17, 2013 8:22 am

Hello to you ..

The distance between the plates is the Minimum needed to spray from the plate during not hit the bottom of the plate over ... then you can always have more distance, etc ... We in our small columns that sits directly on the boiler with oversized heat sources have no problem with the distance just we have enough headroom to ....

A wise man who has a bubble capskolonn in 8 "said 7cm would be enough for HIM before the spray would reach the plate above ...

So the answer is that this is a design issue .... depending on many factors ...the smaller it is the more you can overload it and when we need greater distance ... and the really big sizes column can have a distance of about 10cm and it is more than enough ...do not forget that the column wall also cools the steam so there is no advantage to have more distance than you need for this just requires more power ...

So my advice is: go on a larger column diameter instead of increasing the distance between the plates .. if you will avail yourself of bubbelcaps and keep a close distance between the plates if you are looking for flavored products ....... less reflux from column vall= more taste...
And if you are going for Vodka, nothing can beat a good desing sieve plate, but this is my and some bigger manufactures( vendome) personally opinon :handgestures-thumbupright:


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Re: space between plates

Postby timmyjane » Sun Mar 17, 2013 11:14 pm

Thanks for the replies. I haven't had a chance to sit down at the computer to soak it all in yet.
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Re: space between plates

Postby Shiney 92 » Tue Mar 19, 2013 3:28 pm

Ok This is what i found from HBS http://www.hillbillystills.com/copper_Pipe_p/hbfb01.htmit is their 4' main flute body
HBFB01-2.jpg
it is 20inches long and has 2 1/8 holes for the site glass fixture. I scaled this out in paintshop pro and did a lil math and got this
flute1.jpg
I came up with 4 1/8 plate spaceing and is what i will use on my 3" it seems to work well for them. watch their videos to see how well this setup works.
hope this helps Good luck :obscene-drinkingcheers:
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Re: space between plates

Postby Troppo » Wed Mar 20, 2013 7:12 am

hi fester

larger diameter stills require less space between plates

i think flying dutchman has done a write up on this
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Re: space between plates

Postby harley » Wed Mar 20, 2013 7:30 am

Hi to you all..

Glass column is wery intresting becouse here can you relly se how hight the "bubbles" jump...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQgtcNzW9Nw

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Re: space between plates

Postby Harry » Wed Mar 20, 2013 8:10 am

Like I've been saying all along. The distance between plates MUST be enough to overcome the upward splash of liquid. The height that the liquid is splashed (IOW the violence) depends on how hard you drive the vapor. If the liquid splashes up to contaminate the plate above, you lose efficiency. More plates will be needed to make up for that loss. If you TURN DOWN the power (slower vapor speed) you can run a very efficient distillation with fewer plates. That video clip shows a good speed of vapor to match the design limitations of the still.

This holds true no matter what the diameter is.
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Re: space between plates

Postby harley » Wed Mar 20, 2013 10:51 pm

I must just point out why I have chosen so small and especially many holes in my sieve plates ...

Watching these two glass columns and compare the bubbles .... with several small holes so is the need for gross return less and the bubbles become smaller Oven judgment on several ...
Glass column in my little video has "probably" less and more holes and is somewhere between 8-10% of the activation hole surface and festers sieve plate has both fewer and larger holes and also lower holes%, and here you can see the difference clearly ... .

I'm not interested in bubbles, I just want to the percentage of product :handgestures-thumbupright:

Glass column must be the optimum in order to really see what's happening on the plates when you experiment with different solutions and both bore sizes as holes% in Sieve plate design ...
Theory in all its glory, but it's them practical experience and results that are crucial to the function and how wide bottoms tape to get ...

Cheers

Cheers :obscene-drinkingcheers:
Last edited by harley on Thu Mar 21, 2013 12:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: space between plates

Postby emptyglass » Thu Mar 21, 2013 12:13 am

Fester wrote:Time and time again it usually comes back to the distance between plates to be about equal to the diameter of the plate.
Its just a rule of thumb and not carved in stone but can serve as a general guideline.
A StillDragon 4" bubble tee is 6" tall only because it has a 3" side ferrule for the sight glass or else it would be 4" tall.

Then I see something like this and it stands all that I understand on its' ear...

photo.JPG


Aint no way the distance between the plates is even close to the diameter of the plate on this rig.



.

Thats a cool looking still. lovin da boiler. Collection tube breather is unique.

IMO, if you scale up a plate according to the diameter, the vapor speed should be the same. That said, a big diameter plate should need spacing no different to a smaller one.

Got any other pics of that still Fester? I'd like to see more.
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Re: space between plates

Postby Rene' Dumond » Sun Apr 12, 2015 2:18 pm

Shiney 92 wrote:Ok This is what i found from HBS http://www.hillbillystills.com/copper_Pipe_p/hbfb01.htmit is their 4' main flute body
HBFB01-2.jpg
it is 20inches long and has 2 1/8 holes for the site glass fixture. I scaled this out in paintshop pro and did a lil math and got this
flute1.jpg
I came up with 4 1/8 plate spaceing and is what i will use on my 3" it seems to work well for them. watch their videos to see how well this setup works.
hope this helps Good luck :obscene-drinkingcheers:

'

Would the same spacing work with 2.5" column 24" high???was considering using 4 plates with approx 120 3/32" holes-- no downcomers just plates
Thanks
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Re: space between plates

Postby Zombie » Mon Apr 13, 2015 1:45 am

Hi Rene'

A still will not work like that (no downcomers). What will happen is the plates will flood, and your column will go into a state of "surging" which will eventually blow reflux straight out of your condenser.

There is a balancing act that occurs between the vapor speed (set by column diameter, and power input), plate design, down comer design, reflux ratio, and column height.

Lets start with the boiler, and power you have... What exactly will you be using?

Is there a reason you want a 24" tall column? Using sieve plates I would think (3) plates is the most you could efficiently run using 7/16" ID down comers.
If you Have to use a 24" column some type of packed/reflux column could do better. Perhaps equaling 6 theoretical plates.

What do you intend to use to provide reflux?

I may need to be "put down" soon.
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Re: space between plates

Postby Rene' Dumond » Tue Apr 21, 2015 6:15 pm

Wanted 24" as that is the size of pipe I have-- will be running 40 gals of wash in a 55 gal stainlessmpot using 6000 watt controlable --:SSR unit-- had a forced reflux u :confusion-confused: it I used for years and wanted something different-- built a puredistiller- USA angled clone and wanted to use plates-- have them made with 1\4" rod thru center-132 holes @ 3/32" spaced 4" apart-- advise is needed
Thanks
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Re: space between plates

Postby Rene' Dumond » Tue Apr 21, 2015 6:18 pm

I can add the downcomers just have not figured out how to adjust spacing above and below the plates--
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Re: space between plates

Postby Zombie » Thu Apr 23, 2015 5:12 pm

You could use your down comers as support for the plates. Solder 2/3"ish cap to the lower plate, and a 1/2" down comer pipe to the next plate above it. There are several that have been made like this.

I can draw a diagram if you are un certain of what I mean.

I may need to be "put down" soon.
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Re: space between plates

Postby Rene' Dumond » Sat Apr 25, 2015 10:54 pm

Thank you-- a drawing with measurements would help immensely-- I can follow directions but lack imagination according to my wife--
Are you familiar with the pot still unit by pure distillers us a
Was considering one of those!
Thanks again for the help-- it is very kind
Regards
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Re: space between plates

Postby Zombie » Mon Apr 27, 2015 7:28 pm

Here is a quick idea. It's 4:30am, and I'm heading to work.

I'll re read the thread, and see what you have, and perhaps come up w/ a clearer idea.
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Re: space between plates

Postby Rene' Dumond » Tue Apr 28, 2015 10:36 pm

OK&thanks once again
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Re: space between plates

Postby Rene' Dumond » Wed Apr 29, 2015 12:23 pm

Great-- thank you kindly- should I use one centered then one to the left then alter?
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