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Thick mash burning with immersion heaters?

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Thick mash burning with immersion heaters?

Postby kckdistiller » Thu Mar 07, 2013 3:57 am

Hi everyone,
I'll soon be the proud owner of a 200L boiler Dash-2 system. I plan on making a corn mash vodka. My mash will be an 'on the grain' type meaning basically a fermented corn meal porridge. There is no straining or grain removal in this. Basically its a corn meal/flour mash cooked, enzyme'd, fermented and distilled. Its thicker than a standard sweet wort.

I'm concerned about the thickness of the mash and heating it in the still. I'm debating whether to heat with the default immersion heaters or convert to use direct heat (gas burner). With the immersion heaters directly in the mash can I expect burning of this type of mash?

Has anyone had issues with using the immersion heaters in any of their mashes? What type of mashes are other users successfully/unsuccessfully distilling with?

Thanks
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Re: Thick mash burning with immersion heaters?

Postby harley » Thu Mar 07, 2013 4:11 am

Hi
This is the element that am are using, maybe this is something fore you!

http://www.amazon.com/Camco-02963-Heate ... B000BPG4LI

Cheers :obscene-drinkingcheers:
Falbygdens Bränneri AB a legal commercial distilleries in Sweden that burns Swedish vodka on 20pc 8" Sieve plates and whiskey on 3pc 12" bubbelplate
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Re: Thick mash burning with immersion heaters?

Postby kckdistiller » Thu Mar 07, 2013 4:39 am

Thanks! That element looks great, I bookmarked it and think I will give it a try. I like the fact that its folded back on itself allowing a much lower watts/length ratio. What type of mash are you running? Is it a thin wort or a thicker grain mash?
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Re: Thick mash burning with immersion heaters?

Postby jake_leg » Thu Mar 07, 2013 5:13 am

Stilling on the grain is not an option for stills with an internal element.

Thick mash will burn on any element. Even strained wash will burn if it is too thick. Residual starch, beta glucan, and corn germs will stick and burn. A small amount of solids (bran flour etc) is OK in a low viscosity wash.

Problem #1 with corn is cooking it sufficiently to gelatinize the starch so it can be converted. It needs to have thinned out to sweet wort before you ferment. Problem #2 is separating the wort from the solids. Only 72% of corn is starch and you need to remove the rest either before or after fermenting to have any hope of stilling using an element.

Edited for typos.
Last edited by jake_leg on Thu Mar 07, 2013 5:23 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Thick mash burning with immersion heaters?

Postby harley » Thu Mar 07, 2013 5:15 am

Hi

I will run a thin and almost completely clean grain mash, just as Scotland distills are doing there whiskey ..

There is a big difference to the way you distill with the grain in the boiler but these elements a "think" can work fore your way to distill ...
I know in any case no other with less watts per cm and with the same total power as this ...
Test it ....

Cheers :obscene-drinkingcheers:
Falbygdens Bränneri AB a legal commercial distilleries in Sweden that burns Swedish vodka on 20pc 8" Sieve plates and whiskey on 3pc 12" bubbelplate
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Re: Thick mash burning with immersion heaters?

Postby harley » Thu Mar 07, 2013 5:36 am

Hi

If your mash is so extremely thick and contains so much solid particles, then I think that there may be problems with gas, the surface where the gas burner hits boliern probably have to be extremely thick, so that it does not burn on there too ....

You may need an agitator, so it does not burn so easily in the bottom with gas ... :confusion-confused:

I would recommend you to invest in a bain marie bolier .... or a thinner mash with less solids in. ..

Cheers :obscene-drinkingcheers:
Falbygdens Bränneri AB a legal commercial distilleries in Sweden that burns Swedish vodka on 20pc 8" Sieve plates and whiskey on 3pc 12" bubbelplate
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Re: Thick mash burning with immersion heaters?

Postby jake_leg » Thu Mar 07, 2013 5:52 am

Corn's a bitch basically. Also enzymes are fiddly until you have worked out the pH/temperature requirements. It can be done but unless you have a bit of mashing/stilling expertise already I'd try an easier entry to all grain.

The easiest thing to mash is 100% malt but that is premium whisky material - the flavour is wasted on vodka. For grain vodka I would start with Riku's wheat flour mash and try to scale it up. Or ask Rubber Duck how to mash cracked wheat, he is an expert.
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Re: Thick mash burning with immersion heaters?

Postby harley » Thu Mar 07, 2013 5:52 am

But I just have to ask: why should you have in the ALL vegetable garden in the boiler when you just want the% and the taste ....

Why not do the same as I are doing and many others, strain the mash and try to get it is as clean as possible .... then it is no problem ...

Cheers :obscene-drinkingcheers:
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Re: Thick mash burning with immersion heaters?

Postby harley » Thu Mar 07, 2013 6:03 am

Jake

I will actually use my same mash, malted barley to whiskey as to vodka, and then it becomes single malt vodka .... and this teaches me to be almost alone in Sweden ....

Now I try to get a few acquaintances who are farmers and grow barley intended for the production of whiskey malting it themselves for me so everything is 100% local manufacturing ...

The farmers who grow the grain for whiskey only paid a tenth :-o of what I pay when I buy it from the big operators that having doing malted barley here in Sweden ... and this prosedur is not so extremely difficult to implement yourself if you have the premises and resources like most farmers here in Sweden has ...
Or so I build a small malting facility myself next winter ... i relly HATE Monopol.....
Everything goes just read on and drive on ...
Commercial Premisses I have already which are suitable, I just NOT have the the time to do this at present .. but maybe later ....

Cheers :obscene-drinkingcheers:
Last edited by harley on Thu Mar 07, 2013 6:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
Falbygdens Bränneri AB a legal commercial distilleries in Sweden that burns Swedish vodka on 20pc 8" Sieve plates and whiskey on 3pc 12" bubbelplate
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Re: Thick mash burning with immersion heaters?

Postby kckdistiller » Thu Mar 07, 2013 6:21 am

Thanks for all the answers guys. The reason for the corn mash is that I'm located in southern New Hampshire US and want to make a local product for the local market. The only local grain is corn. This section of the US doesn't really have a wheat, rye, barley, etc market (but I'm still looking). Sounds like I may need to rethink my market entry or try a different mash. Thanks.
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Re: Thick mash burning with immersion heaters?

Postby harley » Thu Mar 07, 2013 7:06 am

kckdistiller wrote:Thanks for all the answers guys. The reason for the corn mash is that I'm located in southern New Hampshire US and want to make a local product for the local market. The only local grain is corn. This section of the US doesn't really have a wheat, rye, barley, etc market (but I'm still looking). Sounds like I may need to rethink my market entry or try a different mash. Thanks.


Take a relly good look on this Boiler, it is an Bain Marie Boiler and it is Swede who own it, and it can be 3pc electrik heaters in the room that are around the "inner boiler" so the elektric heaters have NO contact with the mesh..... and swede make relly good kontroll panels.... I have 3pc of them....soon 4pc..

viewtopic.php?f=43&t=912

This is what a think the best boiler TYP for you if you have axess to good elektic power... and maybe with a agitator on top....and Swede is allso using this to make mesh in....

I relly dont nowe if Sd can make bain marie boiler, but ask them..


Cheers :obscene-drinkingcheers:
Falbygdens Bränneri AB a legal commercial distilleries in Sweden that burns Swedish vodka on 20pc 8" Sieve plates and whiskey on 3pc 12" bubbelplate
We are also on Facebook under our name
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Re: Thick mash burning with immersion heaters?

Postby harley » Thu Mar 07, 2013 7:32 am

Hi Punkin

I actually think that Sd would produce a bain marie model, in some differents size., for some peopel seems to need it.....
It seems that many in the United States and Canada, and more place have all "vegetable garden" in the boiler and then the bain marie bolier is unbeatable ..... and you can use it allso to make mesh in.. like Swede is doing... fully modular boiler with fully modular columns :handgestures-thumbupright:

But they shall be much more expansive that "normally" boilers,,, but you gets what you pay for ...


Cheers :obscene-drinkingcheers:
Falbygdens Bränneri AB a legal commercial distilleries in Sweden that burns Swedish vodka on 20pc 8" Sieve plates and whiskey on 3pc 12" bubbelplate
We are also on Facebook under our name
harley
 
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Re: Thick mash burning with immersion heaters?

Postby harley » Thu Mar 07, 2013 7:42 am

Perfect, but Were is fotos of this... and drawings, price and more.. so a dont Need to link to Swede,s Bain Marie boiler...
A foto ore a drawing say more than 1000 words....
Cheers :obscene-drinkingcheers:
Falbygdens Bränneri AB a legal commercial distilleries in Sweden that burns Swedish vodka on 20pc 8" Sieve plates and whiskey on 3pc 12" bubbelplate
We are also on Facebook under our name
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Re: Thick mash burning with immersion heaters?

Postby salientlucidity » Thu Mar 07, 2013 9:55 am

harley wrote:Hi
This is the element that am are using, maybe this is something fore you!

http://www.amazon.com/Camco-02963-Heate ... B000BPG4LI



Hi Harley, is this element a 1 inch fitting. I need one that will fit the still dragon element kit and want something over 4000 watts
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Re: Thick mash burning with immersion heaters?

Postby harley » Thu Mar 07, 2013 9:33 pm

Hi
Yes, it is 1" fitting, but I'm not sure that still dragons 2 "pipe-element kit enclosure is sufficient short so you can carry through this curved elements, this maybe someone else can answer ....

There are also CAMCO 5500 watt 240 volt elements are straight and they are linked from that page ...

Cheers :obscene-drinkingcheers:
Falbygdens Bränneri AB a legal commercial distilleries in Sweden that burns Swedish vodka on 20pc 8" Sieve plates and whiskey on 3pc 12" bubbelplate
We are also on Facebook under our name
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Re: Thick mash burning with immersion heaters?

Postby delta H » Wed Apr 03, 2013 11:13 am

Question- in terms of wash clearing before a stripping run with immersion heating elements, how much yeast can be tolerated? Previously (non immersion) I've never had issues with allowing the yeast to settle, racking, and adding bentonite - not quite as good as filtering. (Fermentation off grain)

Now I'm looking at larger batch sizes, 30+ us gallon, in cylindroconicals. I'm curious if just dropping the yeast cone will be enough, or if I will need to filter (buon Vino Super Jet Electric Pump Filter, or similar).

Also, Punkin mentioned washable filters, any more info on that would be appreciated.
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Re: Thick mash burning with immersion heaters?

Postby salientlucidity » Thu Apr 04, 2013 9:08 am

Has anyone used one of the Camco ripple heaters in a keg with a Still Dragon guard?
I'm wanting to get one, but not sure if it will fit, they also make a 4500 watt fold back design which will slide in ( it's cheaper but 1000 watts less) and I'm worried about burning UJSSM washes

With the cheap gas ring have now I can't strip faster than 4lt an hour and heat up takes to long
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Re: Thick mash burning with immersion heaters?

Postby DuckofDeath » Thu Apr 04, 2013 1:09 pm

I had to find a different one 5500w that was a high density but not as long on the fold back works great with the element guard. The Cadco I had touched my boiler.
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Re: Thick mash burning with immersion heaters?

Postby salientlucidity » Thu Apr 04, 2013 2:12 pm

Was it on Amazon?
I had wanted http://www.amazon.com/Camco-02963-Heater-Ripple-Element/dp/B000BPG4LI

This foldback one states a length of 14 inches (and a keg is 15) so it should fit?
http://www.amazon.com/Camco-02933-Heater-Element-Foldback/dp/B001RD7MK0/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top

Shipping is more than the element costs to New Zealand so don't want to end up with one I can't use.
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Re: Thick mash burning with immersion heaters?

Postby dellae » Thu Apr 04, 2013 8:48 pm

delta H wrote:Question- in terms of wash clearing before a stripping run with immersion heating elements, how much yeast can be tolerated? Previously (non immersion) I've never had issues with allowing the yeast to settle, racking, and adding bentonite - not quite as good as filtering. (Fermentation off grain)
.


I ferment on the grain and have done many runs without any burning on my elements (1750 & 1250 watt low density).
Once ferment has finished I just strain(kitchen sieve) as it goes to the boiler, I don't even bother letting it sit to clear anymore.
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Re: Thick mash burning with immersion heaters?

Postby delta H » Fri Apr 05, 2013 8:08 am

dellae, that is rather encouraging. Are you making whiskey/etc or distilling to neutral?
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Re: Thick mash burning with immersion heaters?

Postby BareKnuckles » Fri Apr 05, 2013 1:16 pm

I let my washes clear. I also siphon as not to get into the grain/yeast bed due to the fact that I sour mash most of the time.

As of now I use propane but am in process of setting up for 240V....

-BK
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Re: Thick mash burning with immersion heaters?

Postby jake_leg » Fri Apr 05, 2013 2:54 pm

I've tried Dellae's method of just straining off the grain. I can't say it worked every time for me, I had some horrendous and basically instantaneous burns along the way. That may be because I had residual starch in the wash or beta glucan gum. Or because my element was higher wattage/density.

I would tentatively say that if your wash is dry and completely fermented out with no residual sugars, then you can distil with an element even in the presence of a few husks and quite a lot of yeast and trub. But any sugars or sticky stuff will burn, and when it burns it's a disaster. Bad smells, the wash ruined, and lots of cleaning.
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Re: Thick mash burning with immersion heaters?

Postby dellae » Sat Apr 06, 2013 12:03 pm

delta H wrote:dellae, that is rather encouraging. Are you making whiskey/etc or distilling to neutral?


All runs are grain for whisky - neutral is produced from the feints (or when my son is home from Auz).
From my experiences sugar in the wash is the killer.
I have run washes that have been very muddy looking without problems (hydrometer said they were done).

One time when I was in too much of a hurry and there was some residual sugar - bingo, burn't black as. It doesn't take much either.
My low wattage elements may also help - but that is only a guess, as I see most people use much higher wattages.
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Re: Thick mash burning with immersion heaters?

Postby jake_leg » Sat Apr 06, 2013 1:56 pm

Sounds like our experiences are quite similar, but you are better at mashing :lol:
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Re: Thick mash burning with immersion heaters?

Postby delta H » Sun Apr 07, 2013 8:39 am

I appreciate the experience on grain washes and immersion elements.

I am far less worried about residual glucose/maltose (I know how to deal with that) than yeast or glucan. Maybe it is just reducing ends on the sugar... Might be a cute solution to that I will have to try at some point.
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