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E85 bubbelcaps

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E85 bubbelcaps

Postby harley » Sun Jun 29, 2014 8:18 am

Interesting solution for E85/petrol alcohol with the return tubes inside the bubbel capsen, unfortunately teaches separation / taste suffer when they can not control Relux fluid way across ENTIRE plate ... but probably it will be an effective flat surface but at the expense of taste ...

But for E85 this is a rely good solution.... :handgestures-thumbupright:

The whole distillation idea is that reflux liquid should have as Long way that it is only possible before it reaches the next plate return pipe and with this, you get a much better separation ...

Which is never likely to be the case with this construction with 1pc return tube in each bubbelcaps ...


https://www.edit.org/discussion/648/int ... ct-line-up

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ty6eY9VUIgI

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Re: E85 bubbelcaps

Postby Zombie » Sun Jun 29, 2014 8:57 am

One thing I noticed these fellas do not know is the return pipe or down comer is not carting water from one place to another. Downcomers are designed to allow for the escape of vapor (desired product) while maintaining enough open space for reflux to fall clear of the rising vapor it contains. It is actually a two lane road. The falling reflux MUST have enough time, and room for the vapors to rise out.

For all of the Hobby builders this is not important because the still will work regardless. BUT for guys like me that want something to be 100% correct... I spent MANY hours learning the ratio's of open space vs. falling reflux rates.
Technically as the reflux gets lower in the column it is denser and contains less Eth vapor so the down comers can be designed smaller. The reflux is denser but also more viscous so it is also slower falling out.

The math does not lie. One size does not fit all, and a down comer designed to evacuate a plate quickly is also wasting energy due to repeating processes as well as reducing separation efficiency.

I guess it all comes down to what you want/expect.
I want my still to be designed properly to separate Ethanol efficiently.

I may need to be "put down" soon.
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Re: E85 bubbelcaps

Postby FullySilenced » Sun Jun 29, 2014 12:07 pm

E85 is an abbreviation for an ethanol fuel blend of 85% denatured ethanol fuel and 15% gasoline or other hydrocarbon by volume, although the exact ratio of ...


There is no gasoine involved in the use of these bubble caps Harley... not sure why you have put them together and so forth...

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Re: E85 bubbelcaps

Postby harley » Sun Jun 29, 2014 6:01 pm

They are not designed to produce alcohol for drinking, it's all commercial / pro manufacturers and users Completely clear on for it is about separation and not only active flat surface, then they must be designed to produce e85 or any other type of industrial alcohol.

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Re: E85 bubbelcaps

Postby FullySilenced » Mon Jun 30, 2014 2:13 am

They are a new style bubblecap they are patent pending... so no one is using them currently other than the manufacturer and some field testing... they were just released 2 days ago... but are heading out to the prodistillers to run this week... i read..


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Re: E85 bubbelcaps

Postby harley » Mon Jun 30, 2014 6:16 am

Basic plate design is and always has been .... that one should endeavor that the reluxen / return liquid from the plate above shall have such a long way that it is only possible on the plate before it at the next plate return pipe and this has the taste and the ability to separate to do!

Briefly tell them established large manufacturers of distillation that the longer distance / road that you can achieve that return fluid must transport himself at the plate, the more "pure" taste transfer each plate ... and this applies to all types of tiles Sieve, single bubble caps which many bubble caps, valved tray and more...

This is not something that I say without all the big and established manufacturers that I've talked to, yes I have put several thousand hours in the plate design and I have also had the privilege to "get" to talking to a number of distillation engineers (and before they also vendors, but they should always be taken with a pinch of salt) because I have been a very potent "potential" customer ....

Take for example a careful look / control of Kothes single bubbelcaps Aroma plate which I have attached picture of before and even Empty Glass received by me and published on their forum.

There, you should all see that all return tubes are placed in line (they're also adjustable from outside) on the same side of this massive single bubbelcaps, but there is also a "control" that is clearly visible in the top of the return pipe which also occupies the entire distance between bubbelcapsen and the wall, and this means that reflux / return liquid fluid must reach about 350 degrees all around this massive single bubbelcaps before reaching the next plates return pipe ...

This is one of their "patent" together with the design / lip in the low serrated pattern, and this plate is not called Aroma plate / column for no reason ..

Read on a bit themselves, you learn to see what I'm talking about, if you open your eyes ....

I understand why Still Dragon's approach and it suits their device design very well, but do not tell/say that this design is good at transferring clean flavors for then you do not know what you're talking about ... it is much, much worse on this but surely becomes a bigger plate more effective with these bubbelcaps with 1pc return tube in each bubbelcaps if you look and cf. their old return solution that meant that they needed the 1pc in a 4 "and 3-4pc in an 8" and 7-8pc in a 12 "...

Their basic problem is that they do not have bigger / heavier return tube when the column diameter increases, and requires that..., but they have to increase the number of return pipe instead, and even their existing bubbelcaps is small, too small and the total price will be too high when we're talking about larger column diameters than 8 "

Which means you lose extremely much flat surface with their previous solutions ... and now they try to work out a solution with greater bubbelcaps that they can screw together, unfortunately, they have missed the most essential when they designed this bastard ...

we should be drinking the final product and then taste a substantial important ...

Which is also likely to be a problem for those who now dare to buy these bastards is that during each bubbelcaps there is a cup / vapor lock that is filled with liquid reflux ... how shall they empty all these before the next distillation here, we talk about a significantly greater amount than it will be with only a rough reflux tube and 1pc vapor lock ...


Something that they seem to have forgotten ...

I hope that google translate this so you can understand it....

Cheers from Sweden...
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Re: E85 bubbelcaps

Postby crow » Tue Jul 01, 2014 1:47 am

Not sure new is the right word , 87 yrs is not real supa doopa "new", not sure when the patent on these runs out (guessing 90 yr) so might be a short 3 yr wait on re-patenting them :roll: http://www.google.com/patents/US1744543 :lol:
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Re: E85 bubbelcaps

Postby FullySilenced » Tue Jul 01, 2014 3:11 am

All depends on the claims Crow... after all they patent new tires on a regular basis and how many years have tires been produced...

I had patents in 28 countries at one time.. total pain in the ass and expensive as hell to keep em up and pay all the lawyer fee's and various fees for upkeep in each country... oh well

will be interesting to see how these work in real life ....

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Re: E85 bubbelcaps

Postby harley » Tue Jul 01, 2014 5:37 am

Now should it ring in the alarm bells even so they deaf hear ... because as you all can see that this with the return pipe inside the bubble caps is nothing new... and then you all shall wonders Why none of them established old big PRO manufacturers NOTE use this ..... :confusion-confused: :laughing-rolling:


Cheers from Sweden
Falbygdens Bränneri AB a legal commercial distilleries in Sweden that burns Swedish vodka on 20pc 8" Sieve plates and whiskey on 3pc 12" bubbelplate
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Re: E85 bubbelcaps

Postby Zombie » Thu Jul 03, 2014 11:31 am

I am new to this. Less than a year but... I have seen several integral down comer/bubble cap designs posted around. You all know the posters too.
I myself designed a valve plate w/ integral down comers. It's posted here on this forum.

This is a copy/pastre reply to a PM I just sent.

I found that info on one of the petroleum sites. The way they explained it is the reflux liquid is FULL of vapor bubbles. If the down comer is too large these bubbles will fall out w/ the reflux. In essence wasting the energy used to create them.
A properly sized down comer will have just enough room to slow the reflux, and allow the vapor to escape before it falls thru to the lower plate. I spent a lot of time designing the weirs/down comers to allow for this. Tapering down comers was an older way to accomplish the same effect

This MIGHT be seize plate specific. That I am not sure on. I did get the info from a sieve plate manufacturer.s site. The article was basically an add for their system (and its efficiency) but the end had all the dimensions so I converted everything into percentages, and designed mine from that.

"Actually, there should be NO vapour passing up through the downcommer."
Understood. There should also be no vapor passing DOWN thru the down comer. That was the whole concept of the article.

I'll find it again, and link it so you can see where I got the info...

This is in reference to my first reply here. Emptying a plate is not the purpose of a down comer. The purpose is to separate vapor/reflux. The vapor escapes, and the reflux falls.

Oddly I understood Harleys E85 dig.
I'm not slandering or maligning anyone. I have no experience or "dues paid" to do so. I am simply sharing info I have found that makes sense to me.

I may need to be "put down" soon.
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Re: E85 bubbelcaps

Postby crow » Thu Jul 03, 2014 5:09 pm

Zombie wrote: Emptying a plate is not the purpose of a down comer. The purpose is to separate vapor/reflux. The vapor escapes, and the reflux falls.
Err Do you know what a down comer is, it is a vapor lock, that is no vapor can transverse though it or effect the condensate in it
The sole and only purpose of the down comer is to unload the plate at a desired bath depth, any other result and your plate is being effectively bypassed. you could build a still that carried vapor up the down comers and that would be a flash looking pot still :teasing-smokingcrack:

Yes vapor transverses through the bath enriching it and carrying up vapor and some small amount of condensate (entrainment) but other than regulating the bath depth the down comer has eff all to do with that
Oddly I understood Harleys E85 dig.
I'm not slandering or maligning anyone. I have no experience or "dues paid" to do so. I am simply sharing info I have found that makes sense to me.

I don't think I could creditably accused of being bias to the given manufacturer of this particular plate by a very long shot. But fair suck of the old sav mate to state that using this plate design would produce E85 is just verbal diarrhea and to claim to concur with such a statement shows that a lot more reading and comprehension is required before making informed comment :teasing-signhere:
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Re: E85 bubbelcaps

Postby harley » Fri Jul 04, 2014 3:08 am

The major difference between the E85 / Industrial spirit and other spirits type like Whisky, rum and others is that these should you be drinking and then you of course strives for maximum/best quality and taste transfer, note only speed...

The effectiveness of the plate where the ability to separate is very important ..

For a small 2 "and 3" column shall not the difference be so big.

The larger the column diameter, the greater / bigger is the difference be between a well-designed plate that separates as it should and these E85 PRO bubbelcaps...

Could it be that reason that one abandoned this solution with the return pipe in the center of each bubbelcaps in the early 1900's, or what do you other think ...

Cheers from Sweden
Falbygdens Bränneri AB a legal commercial distilleries in Sweden that burns Swedish vodka on 20pc 8" Sieve plates and whiskey on 3pc 12" bubbelplate
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Re: E85 bubbelcaps

Postby harley » Fri Jul 04, 2014 4:39 am

Zombie wrote:I am new to this. Less than a year but... I have seen several integral down comer/bubble cap designs posted around. You all know the posters too.
I myself designed a valve plate w/ integral down comers. It's posted here on this forum.

This is a copy/pastre reply to a PM I just sent.

I found that info on one of the petroleum sites. The way they explained it is the reflux liquid is FULL of vapor bubbles. If the down comer is too large these bubbles will fall out w/ the reflux. In essence wasting the energy used to create them.
A properly sized down comer will have just enough room to slow the reflux, and allow the vapor to escape before it falls thru to the lower plate. I spent a lot of time designing the weirs/down comers to allow for this. Tapering down comers was an older way to accomplish the same effect

This MIGHT be seize plate specific. That I am not sure on. I did get the info from a sieve plate manufacturer.s site. The article was basically an add for their system (and its efficiency) but the end had all the dimensions so I converted everything into percentages, and designed mine from that.

"Actually, there should be NO vapour passing up through the downcommer."
Understood. There should also be no vapor passing DOWN thru the down comer. That was the whole concept of the article.

I'll find it again, and link it so you can see where I got the info...

This is in reference to my first reply here. Emptying a plate is not the purpose of a down comer. The purpose is to separate vapor/reflux. The vapor escapes, and the reflux falls.

Oddly I understood Harleys E85 dig.
I'm not slandering or maligning anyone. I have no experience or "dues paid" to do so. I am simply sharing info I have found that makes sense to me.



Petrol Industri is chasing maximum yield at minimal cost and have no interest in producing a flavored product, as most of us here intends to do with bubbelcaps ( and also sieve plates) and therefore so have sieve plates have become increasingly common in the petrol industry they are both efficient and cheaper to produce than bubbelcaps plates and a relly like sieve plates...

But for hight speed and maximum taste transfer a go for 1pc big bubbelcaps with low rough saw pattern and for maximum separation a go for maximum distance that the reflux liquid must travel on every plate before it go down to next pate... but all my column is 8” and bigger....

This with the small bubbles in the return pipe and that you can loose them if you send wapor/up going steam that way a have note thinking and reading about, this was new for me!

The minimum size of the return pipe can be so different... depending on how people drive there equipment, some people have full/much power and full reflux ( and many plates) for some/long time and others have little power and little reflux (and little plates)...

But one thing is for sure, if the plate is flooding then the return pipe is to small and if you also have no/little pressure on the plate....

Cheers from Sweden
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Re: E85 bubbelcaps

Postby Zombie » Fri Jul 04, 2014 3:49 pm

crow wrote:
Zombie wrote: Emptying a plate is not the purpose of a down comer. The purpose is to separate vapor/reflux. The vapor escapes, and the reflux falls.
Err Do you know what a down comer is, it is a vapor lock, that is no vapor can transverse though it or effect the condensate in it
The sole and only purpose of the down comer is to unload the plate at a desired bath depth, any other result and your plate is being effectively bypassed. you could build a still that carried vapor up the down comers and that would be a flash looking pot still :teasing-smokingcrack:

Yes vapor transverses through the bath enriching it and carrying up vapor and some small amount of condensate (entrainment) but other than regulating the bath depth the down comer has eff all to do with that
Oddly I understood Harleys E85 dig.
I'm not slandering or maligning anyone. I have no experience or "dues paid" to do so. I am simply sharing info I have found that makes sense to me.

I don't think I could creditably accused of being bias to the given manufacturer of this particular plate by a very long shot. But fair suck of the old sav mate to state that using this plate design would produce E85 is just verbal diarrhea and to claim to concur with such a statement shows that a lot more reading and comprehension is required before making informed comment :teasing-signhere:


Respectfully Sir, I have done the reading. I believe you did not understand the point I am trying to make.

A PROPERLY designed down comer is made to allow vapor bubbles to escape while allowing the reflux liquid to fall. That is the ONLY point I am making.
A tube of any sort will prevent flooding. A down comer is not a tube (on properly engineered distillation towers) Plate flow dynamics, and vapor separation from reflux are designed into down comers. Draining a plate is the idea of a tube.

IMHO the leaps, and bounds improvements in hobby distillation rigs will be in PROPERLY designing down comer/weirs. The idea is to separate not recycle from plate to plate.

I have spent many months thinking/re-thinking/learning/understanding what is happening inside the columns that Old Dog developed. This led directly back into the petrol chemical industry where his concepts came from.

http://www.chemicalprocessing.com/asset ... _rates.pdf

A quote from that article...
Downcomer choke occurs when the top area of
the downcomer is inadequate to handle the high
froth flow, preventing effective vapor disengagement
of the vapor. This causes the liquid to back
up onto the tray deck until the column floods. This is generally evaluated semi-empirically as a
function of the clear liquid velocity in the downcom
er. In high pressure systems, this clear liquid
assumption becomes less and less realistic since
the fluid entering the downcomer will actually
be a mixed phase froth and the volumetric flow
rate can be several times higher than a calculated
clear liquid velocity. As a result, many high pressure applications use system factors to derate
the tray capacity. A typical system factor will
derate the downcomer by
10% - 25% while a more
severe system may require the expected tray
performance to be derated by 50%. Severe
foaming systems may require derating the trays even further.

Respectfully sir. I have read... a lot. I have also designed a system that is using the laws/rules/math developed over the past century. My design is expensive, and complicated to build. BUT it is done correctly. I have no use for bean counting when I set to do something. I intend to have a one of a kind EFFICIENT still. That is my goal. I can already make hootch from hardware store parts.

Please take this as discussion. I have no need to draw lines or take sides. Just MY opinion.

I may need to be "put down" soon.
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Re: E85 bubbelcaps

Postby crow » Mon Jul 07, 2014 1:09 am

well with all due respect actually you are wrong on most if not all your points there champ, Firstly you will find OD did not base his design on a petrochemical cracking tower but on a Holstein plated column and the origins of this still come from the Coffey (1830) still which itself is an improvement on the patent still(1828) and before that the Perrier continuous whiskey still (1822). None of these stills were for the distillation of crude oil. The theories you seem to be using relate or are relevant to high temp high pressure cracking towers which are fractioning towers but do not work exactly the same, for one they are under pressure and take of different volatiles at different points asphalt at the bottom then oils then diesel, petroleum and butane and propane gases from the top. They are generally very large diameter plates where weirs and plate flows are much more important and no doubt so is methods of allowing volatile gasses to bubble up. I understand that ppl like Dr Paul Macdaugh and others adapted smaller diameter cap plate stills back in the 1970s into efficient ethanol fuel stills but these stills although pretty much identical to the plated stills most hobby distillers use are not the origin of them as they themselves are developed from plated whiskey or brandy stills :handgestures-thumbupright:
Not sure what you mean by stating that you are chasing 100% efficiency, you can get that from a reflux vacuum still but these stills by their very nature are designed to be quite deliberately inefficient as is required to produce a robust flavoured libation and in fact cannot operate 100% efficient without physically changing them to a hybrid refluxing still though such means as a packed reflux module :handgestures-thumbupright:
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Re: E85 bubbelcaps

Postby Zombie » Mon Jul 07, 2014 3:33 am

Thanks for the info on Old D's designs. I was never completely clear what he was scaling down.

I am very happy you understood my point, and it's origins. I realize the difference between chasing flavor, and creating fuel so my points may not actually apply to all distillers. I am looking to make Vodka/Neutral in a single run at azetrope in a still that is less than 8' tall including a 30 gallon boiler That is why plate efficiency is paramount to me, nd I am basing what I am doing on fuel columns.

I am not shooting for 100% but I am looking to do better than the multiple run hobby designs available. strangely enough you mentioned Vacuum. That is also kicking around in my future development plans.

I can see where this has gotten off the track of the OP. I guess I am looking to do something completely different but I do understand Harleys point of the integral down comer design, and small bubble caps w/ large slots impairing or reducing flavor transfer. I guess that was the only real point here.

i appreciate your taking the time to discuss this and help me, and others get the facts right. That's why I am here. To get this right!

I may need to be "put down" soon.
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