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Dash gin basket development

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Re: Dash gin basket development

Postby FullySilenced » Sat Nov 03, 2012 4:20 am

I wonder if it matters which way the vapor travels ... from the top down may be better for the dash units...
then out the bottom to the condenser... and it would carry any build up fluid with it... nothing to drain.... then just a matter of opening the fixture and change the cassette... at specific intervals of product produced versus herbals in the cassette...
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Re: Dash gin basket development

Postby Monty » Sat Nov 03, 2012 5:15 am

FullySilenced wrote:I wonder if it matters which way the vapor travels ... from the top down may be better for the dash units...
then out the bottom to the condenser... and it would carry any build up fluid with it... nothing to drain.... then just a matter of opening the fixture and change the cassette... at specific intervals of product produced versus herbals in the cassette...

I kept thinking the same thing and wondering why this would be a problem - and I think it has to do with any herbal bits ending up in the distilate. As a hobbyist, using a coffee filter to make sure nothing got in or filtering after the fact wouldn't be a big issue, but on anything approaching a commercial level I could see this being a problem.
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Re: Dash gin basket development

Postby FullySilenced » Sat Nov 03, 2012 6:24 am

if your worried about that put a coffee filter inline... just in front of the condenser... at the clamp or something like that.... 4 inches or more in front of the condenser then...
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Re: Dash gin basket development

Postby UZGin » Sat Nov 03, 2012 7:28 am

Cooperville wrote:UZgin thank you for a response it's awesome to have someone with a solid knowledge base
Inputing into this forum . I thank you for your honesty it was an idea that came to mind and I'm glad you knocked it down
It means we can move on I'm sure Fester knows his limitations on manufacturing and costs
So if we are still looking at a offset gin basket I think we should concerntrate on perfecting that type of design
One thing I need to verify
:does the carter head type basket need a drain Line and where does the drain return to if any
I think once that is worked out I'm sure Fester could make an executive desicion and possibly get a prototype
That will be functional for all size stills after scaling up
Once again thanks


I really hope I didn't offend. I believe a straight opinion (said in a nice way) is the way not to waste people's time. I'm here for everyone else in the forum! I swear!

It was a bloody good idea though, i'm thinking of other purposes for it.

Regarding the drain line, in a word, Yes.

My personal belief is that it should run back to the column head, or boiler. This presents a problem, as it's much more difficult to take apart, and for the hobbyists (and StillDragon's ethos), modular is the order of the day. It must be easy to take apart (although my commercial operation will have it permanently set up). This is a design consideration that largely defines StillDragon parts (and really good point of difference).

That said, when you drain through to the boiler, you are draining a rich, liquid extracted 'Gin/Ethanol' Concoction. Once in the boiler, it's as valuable to you as simple, straight ethanol, depending on your still setup. You may be able to get some flavour carried through the still, but that requires less plates/pot still...giving a spirit with congeners flowing through a Gin basket trying to extract more. It's not measurable and not consistent run-to-run. Therefore, commercial operations wouldn't be too happy. It's far easier for us to simply extract the full ethanol, with no congeners to try and extract more from the Gin basket, we can measure this and ensure product consistency.

In this instance, it's better to simply drain off into a vessel/bucket and add it in with your tails for redistillation and accept the oil losses.

OR

What I'd much prefer StillDragon and everyone on the forum to think about is how to minimize reflux and losses in the Gin head completely. We're thinking a lot about the design and structure of the Gin head in reference to the Still's balance, modular nature etc (which is of course, warranted). We should use the readily accepted structure of the Gin head, look at Carl Stills for a good idea, it's very simple. But where StillDragon can make it's point of difference is focussing on the logistics of extraction. How can we maximise vapour extraction and minimize reflux? Literally...how can we make a more efficient and better Gin head?

For this, I highly recommend we look towards the perfumery industry. Their entire operation is defined by steam (vapour) distillation. They use lift-out trays. This is a design feature incredibly similar to the current StillDragon bubble-tees. Tray-on-Tray.



FullySilenced wrote:I wonder if it matters which way the vapor travels ... from the top down may be better for the dash units...
then out the bottom to the condenser... and it would carry any build up fluid with it... nothing to drain.... then just a matter of opening the fixture and change the cassette... at specific intervals of product produced versus herbals in the cassette...


Vapor travel downwards isn't recommended, and for most of the hobbyists, won't be possible.

You effectively have to 'push' vapour to move downwards, with more vapour. This is entirely possible when you have a large throughput (+200L boiler with access to high power elements) leading into less than 1inch pipes. This ensures full vapour moving downwards with minimal reflux.

Reflux will be the issue here, trying to push vapour downwards, through a basket of botanicals (which will be doubly difficult). Furthermore, this will become liquid extraction of oil compounds, not vapour extraction as is intended.

Monty wrote:
FullySilenced wrote:I wonder if it matters which way the vapor travels ... from the top down may be better for the dash units...
then out the bottom to the condenser... and it would carry any build up fluid with it... nothing to drain.... then just a matter of opening the fixture and change the cassette... at specific intervals of product produced versus herbals in the cassette...

I kept thinking the same thing and wondering why this would be a problem - and I think it has to do with any herbal bits ending up in the distilate. As a hobbyist, using a coffee filter to make sure nothing got in or filtering after the fact wouldn't be a big issue, but on anything approaching a commercial level I could see this being a problem.


It's actually not too much of a hassle having solids in the distillate. Most of us use Pad filters pre-bottle, although we prefer not to. However, for a Gin basket design, getting vapour to move downwards is very difficult.
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Re: Dash gin basket development

Postby FullySilenced » Sat Nov 03, 2012 7:50 am

Thank YOU UZ for giving us guidelines...

so we catch the gin head distillate, kinda like a bok... to a fixed catch container using a vapor lock loop maybe....

feed the gin head from the bottom vapor wise, vapor out the top...

should the bottom vapor feed be 2" or 3" 4" for a commercial unit? i can see 2" for a prototype...


"hmmm if you used a 180 with a drain fitting on the bottom to feed it from the bottom you would have a simi thumper with a boka drain at the bottom of the 180 tube as the liquid fills the pipe it would gurgle...." was thinking of a sink drain trap as i wrote this....

removable cassettes out the side...

now do we need a thumper head below the gin basket as Fester was working on or just a upward tube

or an upward tube with a catch cup as per coop's idea... something like the catch cups in the boka thread a week or two ago...

thats kinda my notes at present... input please :geek:
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Re: Dash gin basket development

Postby UZGin » Sat Nov 03, 2012 8:46 am

FullySilenced wrote:Thank YOU UZ for giving us guidelines...

so we catch the gin head distillate, kinda like a bok... to a fixed catch container using a vapor lock loop maybe....

feed the gin head from the bottom vapor wise, vapor out the top...

should the bottom vapor feed be 2" or 3" 4" for a commercial unit? i can see 2" for a prototype...



Sorry, i'm a tad confused. Dephleg -> Gin Head -> Condenser...you catch the distillate from the parrot?

2" input will be more than enough for a commercial operation. I would even recommend 1 1/2".

EDIT: Not sure if the guidelines comment was good or bad? I don't mean to direct the entire development, this is StillDragon's product, I'm just providing commercial considerations. I'm also trying to pick out problems and provide ideas to fix it, rather than just bagging the whole thing.
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Re: Dash gin basket development

Postby FullySilenced » Sat Nov 03, 2012 8:49 am

the gin head distillate is the liguid that forms in the bottom of the gin head ..... the stuff were draining off and talked about draining back to the boiler.... not finished product... through the condenser... and 2'' is a std tubing size for SD
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Re: Dash gin basket development

Postby FullySilenced » Sat Nov 03, 2012 10:06 am

Finished up at the office for the day, stopped at McD's for a coffee and could not get the gin thing off my mind... I drew this up while at McD's and am sending it by phone, which is a first for me ...

Camlocks would be positive movement type would push the top plate up to open and down to close very positive movement.. i am just thinking two posts and the plates would have the seals inset into them but flush or barely below the plate surface on the lower plate to help center the cassette.

I combined what UZGIN had mentioned and what Fester and other have worked on and this is a rough over the phone drawing so please forgive me but had to get the idea on the forum. It is what it is... so chew me up spit me out or tell me to go screw myself...

Thank you all for the comments and ideas. LOO maybe can draw it up on his CAD program
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Re: Dash gin basket development

Postby stubbydrainer » Sat Nov 03, 2012 10:31 am

I really like festers thumper bit :lol: :lol:
I get excited when I dilute my spirits to 40% ABV...... It means I get more to drink more often
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Re: Dash gin basket development

Postby UZGin » Sat Nov 03, 2012 10:34 am

FullySilenced wrote:Finished up at the office for the day, stopped at McD's for a coffee and could not get the gin thing off my mind... I drew this up while at McD's and am sending it by phone, which is a first for me ...

Camlocks would be positive movement type would push the top plate up to open and down to close very positive movement.. i am just thinking two posts and the plates would have the seals inset into them but flush or barely below the plate surface on the lower plate to help center the cassette.

I combined what UZGIN had mentioned and what Fester and other have worked on and this is a rough over the phone drawing so please forgive me but had to get the idea on the forum. It is what it is... so chew me up spit me out or tell me to go screw myself...

Thank you all for the comments and ideas. LOO maybe can draw it up on his CAD program


Cool, pretty good idea. I wouldn't see the need for a Thumper, just a an upward tube with a draining point with a ball valve. Almost like a T-Section at the bottom.

If possible, a glass 'cassette' would be really cool. I'd like that.

As a side, it's important to draw a line of distinction between a Whiskey distiller and Gin distiller. Believe it or not, but it's quite an obvious taste when you encounter a Gin being produced by a Whiskey Distiller (not discrediting them...they are great at what they do), it's simply a different approach. For this product to be the best it can be, and true to style, we gotta take our whiskey hats off, and put our gin hats on :)

I like this idea guys.
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Re: Dash gin basket development

Postby Lucky Liqueur » Sun Nov 04, 2012 7:48 am

thought on the practice of stacking baskets

crozdog
Or have the ability to stack smaller baskets on top of each other inside the housing

FullySilenced
Why not something like a revolver has...... then then rotate a re-loadable chamber into place.

How about not stacking one basket on top of another, but have s/s wire baskets (sort of shaped like fruit wedges) alongside each other with a different herb in each segment.

As each segment/chamber is exhausted by the vapour, you power down the boiler and swop out the segment with a fresh one.
A segments with Juniper would be more filled than a segment with Angelica or Cinnamon Myrtle.
fruit_segments.jpg
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Re: Dash gin basket development

Postby FullySilenced » Sun Nov 04, 2012 8:18 am

change out time with the camlocks would still only be seconds.... regardless very little vapor loss... may not even require going to reflux it would be so fast...
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Re: Dash gin basket development

Postby UZGin » Sun Nov 04, 2012 11:04 am

Lucky Liqueur wrote:
How about not stacking one basket on top of another, but have s/s wire baskets (sort of shaped like fruit wedges) alongside each other with a different herb in each segment.

As each segment/chamber is exhausted by the vapour, you power down the boiler and swop out the segment with a fresh one.
A segments with Juniper would be more filled than a segment with Angelica or Cinnamon Myrtle.
fruit_segments.jpg


This is precisely how Hendrick's Carter Head operates.

punkin wrote:If you had a sliding hatch and rotating segment arrangement you could pull them out hot and running. 8-)


From a commercial, and a safety point of view, we wouldn't do it. Ethanol Vapour, Metal Grinding on Metal...even full reflux is a risk.
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Re: Dash gin basket development

Postby Jung4g » Wed Nov 21, 2012 8:39 am

I'm a newb with this stuff, but I love the engineers in this hobby. I'm still in the middle of building my version of a Dash 1, but always looking ahead...

What about something similar to this? http://www.glaciertanks.com/TriClamp_Strainers-TriClamp_Strainer_2.html

But Set up more like this with "basket" that fills the 4" pipe so vapor has to pass through the goods:
Image

For Hobby use, a single basket would probably suffice, but purchase a 2nd one and you can swap it out mid run pretty quickly, then clean the first one and refill for the next swap.

To avoid the reflux issue, I'd put a small drain at the bottom of the 2" P-Trap that snakes from the top of the column down and then back up to the Gin Basket.
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Re: Dash gin basket development

Postby Lucky Liqueur » Sun Nov 25, 2012 8:34 am

Hey Jung4g

Nice to see the "thinking cap" is still on for some folks.
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Re: Dash gin basket development

Postby UZGin » Sun Nov 25, 2012 9:20 am

Jung4g wrote:I'm a newb with this stuff, but I love the engineers in this hobby. I'm still in the middle of building my version of a Dash 1, but always looking ahead...

What about something similar to this? http://www.glaciertanks.com/TriClamp_Strainers-TriClamp_Strainer_2.html

But Set up more like this with "basket" that fills the 4" pipe so vapor has to pass through the goods:
Image

For Hobby use, a single basket would probably suffice, but purchase a 2nd one and you can swap it out mid run pretty quickly, then clean the first one and refill for the next swap.

To avoid the reflux issue, I'd put a small drain at the bottom of the 2" P-Trap that snakes from the top of the column down and then back up to the Gin Basket.


Pretty darn good base to work with.

The entry point at the bottom poses a few issues. It'll have to exist higher than the still unit itself, or you'll need to pipe from the still, downwards, inducing reflux. As pointed out before, the hobbyists don't have the throughput to push consistent vapour without losses to reflux.

If the entry point came in from the side, it'd be more acceptable.

Alternatively, you can pipe downwards to the Gin head, but the entry and exit point internal diameters need to be much, much smaller. About 1/2 inch. This allows you to push vapour, retain heat, minimize reflux, even with a 50L boiler. The internal diameter doesn't really matter for guys like us who use 300L + boilers...we just push vapour faster through it....in short, a 1/2 inch inlets suits all :)

PS: Sorry all, i've been MIA for a couple weeks, chasing my tail a bit...will begin to be more active now! I promise!
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Re: Dash gin basket development

Postby FullySilenced » Sun Nov 25, 2012 10:57 am

And I thought erector sets were fun when I was a kid.... I had nothing like what Smaug has now to play with...

:o Really nice!
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Re: Dash gin basket development

Postby Hawk » Sun Nov 25, 2012 11:46 am

Thats pretty awesome lookin Smaug. I may have to try some gin and decide if it is something id like to dabble with.
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Re: Dash gin basket development

Postby FullySilenced » Sun Nov 25, 2012 12:46 pm

HR do not buy cheap gin if you have never really had it before....

get the good stuff and its awesome... A cheap gin drunk/hangover is a once in a lifetime happening...that you will never forget
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Re: Dash gin basket development

Postby Hawk » Sun Nov 25, 2012 3:23 pm

FullySilenced wrote:HR do not buy cheap gin if you have never really had it before....

get the good stuff and its awesome... A cheap gin drunk/hangover is a once in a lifetime happening...that you will never forget


Maybe Ill just go out and have some Gin at a nice little place. Cool little basement place down town maybe. You feel like you are in a castle when you are there.
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Re: Dash gin basket development

Postby crozdog » Sun Nov 25, 2012 11:04 pm

Smaug wrote:We do have quite a bit in place already for the big stuff.
This is a 6" but we can do something like this in an 8".
Weld one of our manways to an 8" ferrule for the top for easy cartridge swaping and the top tee remains usable for other configs.
And a short 8" to 3/4" reducer/adapter/endcap at the bottom with a DN10 santi valve for good measure.

And a cartridge?........We need a cartridge.



SMAUG, if you look at the bits you have already i reckon your concept is almost there for the dash user...
what about using a 3" T top & bottom capped with an end plate? they have your 2" inlet/outlet already sorted.
Add a straight 3" section in the middle to house a basket - i know I have seen 3 & 4" SS mesh baskets on fleabay pretty cheap... (sorta like this http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Kitchen-Stai ... 1270wt_922 ) they are often used in tea pots - basically a U shaped basket with a solid rim (that's sit in between the fittings like a bubble plate does)
Just need to add a couple of 2" 90's, a few gaskets & clamps & you've got a package i reckon that could suit my needs - and probably those of many others whilst expanding the SD modular concept with almost no effort.. + I'm a big fan of the KISS principle.

personally i'm interested in something i could use for a batch operation rather than making separate essences of each botanical & blending the various ones to get the desired profile.

One thing you could do would be to tap one end plate & fit a ball valve to drain any reflux...

but you're right sourcing a basket is key.
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Re: Dash gin basket development

Postby FullySilenced » Mon Nov 26, 2012 3:06 am

OK Smaug I am having trouble seeing anything coming out of the parrot... could you take a closer shot for me please....or fix that issue :lol: :lol:
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Re: Dash gin basket development

Postby crozdog » Mon Nov 26, 2012 9:59 pm

SMAUG, is it possible to make a 3" - 2" 90 degree elbow instead of using the 3" T?

On the basket front, I found this http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/teapot-filte ... 500wt_1095

and this http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/52374 ... ilter.html

and this http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/67230 ... ilter.html

Fester might have to talk to some SS mesh folks...
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Re: Dash gin basket development

Postby Odin » Tue Nov 27, 2012 6:38 am

Smaug,

I don't get it. There is a dephlag right on top of the boiler? Why is that? Or are you feeding gin herbs enriched reflux from the basket back into the boiler?

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Re: Dash gin basket development

Postby harley » Tue Nov 27, 2012 7:01 am

Interesting solutions :shock:
But shall we be serious ( and boring) and see if we can get something that is both useful and salable!
I personally would put Gin basket-part after reflux when the steam is heading DOWN to the product cooler.

between reflux and product cooler, but on the way down, because then you get the most taste from the content in gin basket and it sucks-take no effect of from steam on this way to the reflux cooler becouse it is after and before product cooler ...

This is my best solution and this is howe a shall be doing it...

Cheers
Last edited by harley on Tue Nov 27, 2012 7:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dash gin basket development

Postby Monty » Tue Nov 27, 2012 7:04 am

Odin wrote:Smaug,

I don't get it. There is a dephlag right on top of the boiler? Why is that? Or are you feeding gin herbs enriched reflux from the basket back into the boiler?

Odin.


So you can send it into total reflux while you change out the herbs?
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Re: Dash gin basket development

Postby harley » Tue Nov 27, 2012 7:09 am

Ginbasket need to be big, 8" -12" so you dont need to change herbs before you are finish :idea:

Time and number of distillations are wasting resources so try to get to a solution that works with a standard distillation, then it's good, very good ...

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Re: Dash gin basket development

Postby Odin » Tue Nov 27, 2012 7:40 am

I think there is always two runs. First to make cuts. Then a second one to introduce herbs. Might even want a third one. Second for juniper, third for other herbs, at a slightly elevated abv ...

On both second and third run no dephlag function is needed above the gin basket. Don't want to wet the herbs too much. At least not when vapour infusing fruit skins. If no fruit skins are present, some reflux might actually get over more (berry, root) tastes.

I have heared a lot on a gin basket just before the product cooler. Not a fan of it myself. Allows for particles to fall into your final product. Even at a microscopic level: it will impart off flavours over time.

Personally, I think you are making things overly complex at the moment.

Just take your normal dash 2 and proceed from there. Nothing more is needed for an excelent vapour infused/semi-pot distilled gin or geneva.

Make a first run on a neutral and or a 30% corn/30% barley/40% rye AG or UJ. And do your cuts as usual.

Re-ntroduce the hearts into the boiler (maybe combine 2 or 3 runs?). Start heating. And start building your bubble cap column like this:

Bubble cap plate on top of boiler. On top of that a module without the bubble caps present. On top of that the dephlag. On top of that another section, again without bubble caps. Then the elbow and downwards to the product condenser.

Now put mildly crushed juniper berries and roots in a hop bag in the lowest non bubble caped section (just under the dephlag). Put a hops sack with "higher" ingredients like lemon, tangerine skins in the section without bubble caps above the dephlag.

Start to run with a mild reflux on the deplag, to allow to wett the berries & roots. Fruits will only get vapour contact. Maybe best of both worlds?

Or leave the bottom bubble cap section out all together, allowing for reflux to be reboiled in the boiler?

What I am saying is: all the gear is in place. Just buy a Dash 2 with six sections. Use it in 4 plate style for whiskey (or malt brandywine: base likker for geneva), and convert the two other sections as afore mentioned.

Just my 2 pence. Or pounds. Or Euro's.

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Re: Dash gin basket development

Postby harley » Tue Nov 27, 2012 11:20 pm

For those of us who burn commercially as time is money and little pollution has no problem to handle for one has a feints before bottling bottle that cleans down to a few microns ...
We have no problem separating factions because we usually run the same mash, power and more so we know when it's time to pick out what we want ...
We have large columns and our best and in many cases the only option is to place a gin basket between reflux and product cooler ...

Personally, I would want 2 "connections at the top and bottom and fine mesh at both ends and a door - door in the middle of gin basket for filling and then it can also sit there when not in use ... I would also like to size the corresponding column size ...

but as a hobby and with small 2" - 4 "columns, then you can experiment freely and add a large number of hours to get what you want ...

What if someone who uses Sd 8 "column wants a gin basket, where would it be located, size and how it would need to be designed when 8 "column stands on the boiler :idea:

There are, in other words needs of several different designs of Ginbaskets ...one for hobby and one for commercially

Optimal ( for me) would va a such a big door so you can take out the entire screen basket separately and fill it out. then this could be a permanent installation on most sites and screen basket could be filled and mounted inside when it,s time to run the gin .. or any other flavored stuff that need lot of vegetables ... :roll:

Law of Oms!
This must be something for you to sketch some of, you are soo good with this dravings in computer 8-) But think BIG...our boilers can accommodate between 200-500 liters of mash

Cheers
Last edited by harley on Wed Nov 28, 2012 12:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dash gin basket development

Postby harley » Wed Nov 28, 2012 12:16 am

Fester

Take a look on this link and in this foto,s
Sorry, but this is the only way a could show you this.

This is how Carl,s have make there,s gin solutions. and a think that this is what you are looking for!

http://www.barbore.com/phpbb3/viewtopic ... 1&start=15


look at the link! Consider a 2 "pipe with a 2" tap that blocks the flow and forces the steam to move the crane to Gin basketball lower input since it is ginbasketens upper side discharge is connected under the tap.
As is the whole package at the side of 2 "pipe and easiest between reflux and product cooler and when the vapor must rise by gin basketball so it should not pollute so much ... and you can easily disable the gin basket by opening 2" tap again .. . Sorry but google translating issnt so good anytime...hope you understand what a ment... Pipe shall go like a X..

but the location of this entire package is still in the same place that I personally think is the easiest .... and Carl's seem to have the same opinion as me

In Swedish we call this " a thief conections"
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Re: Dash gin basket development

Postby harley » Wed Nov 28, 2012 2:41 am

I buy your reasoning! No problem :idea:

With this solution as Carl, s has, and a try to explane that a think is best for me and my solutions and plant.
I would actually be interested in buying from you, and surely many more with me on ADI ... but this does NOT mean that you and SD have to stop to develop a "simpler and less solution" for those with other needs ore ideas ..

I'm talking, based on my needs and wants.

So come on and make a draving fore me, law of oms, 1pc prototype... 8-)
so we can make business and maybe this is good for some others, that shall the future show.

What are you saing about this Fester!
Can you let produce 1pc special to me, if we together can get it the way a want.

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Re: Dash gin basket development

Postby crozdog » Sun Dec 09, 2012 9:21 pm

Did my first gin run yesterday attempting a bombay saph clone & have some feedback to share which should (hopefully) help.

I covered the element with water then added 6l 40% vodka. I made a SS mesh basket and covered it with 2 layers of muslin & put it in the bottom of my 2" extension. Mounted that above the 2" condenser after the U bend at the top of the dash 1 (no plates) & 500ml 4" extension (had to use it all to get the height of the parrot right).

I loaded the basket with 200g uncrushed botanicals - total determined by Odin's estimates earlier (25 - 40g/l).
botanicals before.jpg


Fester note the volume - it almost filled the 2" extension!! One thing to consider when designing is the basket will need to be big enough to hold plenty of herbage.

The run went uneventfully - the shed smelt great :D .
Here is the finished product (collected 4.7l @48%) diluted back to 42%. You can see the product is light brown cause of the condensate on the botanicals dripping down into the condenser - a carter head would eliminate that & give a clear product. You can also see the basket I made and the botanicals which have swollen by about 1 third (600 ml - 800ml) - something I didn't think of before.

botanicals after with product and basket.jpg


The product tastes & smells awesome by the way.

Fester I reckon a carter head is the way to go to get clear product, but you will need to consider the size of the basket both for dry botanicals + allow room for expansion. FYI - I don't think 6l is a big boiler charge - just glad I didn't do a bigger 1 cause i would not have fitted the botanicals in.

The mockups Smaug did earlier look good - take it from there & check the volume. if OK - you just gotta source a basket...
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Re: Dash gin basket development

Postby Odin » Mon Dec 10, 2012 1:28 am

Congrats on your results!

Maybe trailing off topic, but why not put it in the 4 inch Dash I tower? That way you don't get contamination of particles falling in your likker. Yes, some will fall back into your boiler, but that's easily cleaned out! That way, you could have crushed the berries as well and you would have gotten more tasty oils over.

But if you like the result ... what is there to change, right?

Great to hear of your succes. Could you tell us your herbs bill?

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Re: Dash gin basket development

Postby FullySilenced » Mon Dec 10, 2012 1:59 am

IF the taste is there to me color would not matter cause i am not selling the product and have no one to please but myself...

but would love to hear more about the nuances of the finished product...
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Re: Dash gin basket development

Postby crozdog » Mon Dec 10, 2012 6:51 pm

Hi guys,

Odin, as it was my 1st attempt at gin, I was being cautious re "contaminating" my boiler, but after the run when I rinsed the bits which were in contact with the "herbed" product a couple of times in clean water the gin smell disappeared - reckon the same would work if i did as you say & suspend the basket above the boiler. But like FS, i don't need to keep customers happy....

My botanicals bill was as follows:
Juniper 100g
Coriander seeds 50g
Angelica Root 50g
Cassia 50g
Liquorice 50g
Bitter Almonds 1ml essence
Grains of Paradise 10g
Cubeb Berries 10g
Orris Root 1g
Lemon Peel 1g
I based this on info zymurgy bob posted & scaled it according to your ratios - picked a middle ground for my 1st time.

FS, as I'm not a seasoned ginophile, i'm not sure I am in a position yet to be able to elaborate on the flavour profile I ended up with - other than saying it tastes like gin ;-). Guess I need to educate my palate a bit more haha as if I need more excuses to drink!

Posted the results here so fester could have some hard data re quantities/volume of botanicals when designing.
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Re: Dash gin basket development

Postby Odin » Tue Dec 11, 2012 5:22 am

I think that's quite a lot of Cassia and Angelica. Relative to the Juniper. But it seems to work out well for you. Cleaning a still (or boiler) after a gin run is not a problem. All you need hot water. Beter to contaminate (if that is the word) your boiler, than the final drink!

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Re: Dash gin basket development

Postby FullySilenced » Fri Dec 14, 2012 5:56 pm

This is a repost of a link... they have some exceptional ss gasketed screens and some inline baskets that Fester may want to look at...

take a look at these inline sanitary baskets...

http://www.rubberfab.com/sites/default/ ... Gasket.pdf

Gasket.pdf down troward the bottom
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Re: Dash gin basket development

Postby UZGin » Mon Dec 17, 2012 9:22 am

It doesn't have to be a mesh screen.

If anything, I think a mesh screen has a limited lifetime.

Do you have a workshop that can jet lots of holes into SS or Copper?
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Re: Dash gin basket development

Postby UZGin » Wed Dec 19, 2012 7:46 am

This would work, but bigger holes.

I'm just concerned with a mesh falling apart after i've run 300L through it. Every commercial unit i've utilized has more of a perforated, 2mm thick basket rather than mesh. Even they have a limited lifetime (considering they're running 000s of litres through per run).

viewtopic.php?f=33&t=886
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Re: Dash gin basket development

Postby Badger » Sun Mar 24, 2013 1:23 am

]Looks like this conversation has stalled out a bit (and what a GREAT conversation it was...I love reading these year-long threads all in one go!).

I'd like to give the carter head idea a go and came up with this idea. It seems too simple so please show me where it falls down.

The basic idea is to take my Dash 1 and put the dephleg after the second T. The 3rd and 4th Ts would be connected via the sight glass ports in the shape of an H (in the image, it incorrectly looks like the ports are facing out). The left hand T would have have a drain for the "juice" and vapor would continue up to the 180 bend. I think this satisfies the requirements of keeping condensate from dropping into the boiler or the final product. A downside is that it wouldn't have a viewing port.

gin head.jpg


Thoughts?

Also, has there been any consensus on a good "basket" for StillDragon 4" dimensions? So far, it looks like everyone is just sourcing their own.

Thanks,
Badger
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Re: Dash gin basket development

Postby Badger » Mon Mar 25, 2013 2:58 am

oh, and I suppose it should go without saying that this design assumes a pre-distilled (with cuts) wash so only having 2 bubble plates below the dephleg shouldn't be an issue.

P.S. would it help to have a 4"-2" reducer under the left hand T (above the valve) to catch even more "juice" before the risk of it pouring back into the right hand T? I don't have a sense of how much volume we're talking here...
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Re: Dash gin basket development

Postby Badger » Wed Mar 27, 2013 12:14 pm

Thanks. I'm glad you think so. At least I didn't miss something super obvious.

I'm thinking of using an inverted 1/2 bubble torpedo (the one with the sight glass) under the gin basket so I can see the "juice" level and drain accordingly.

I, too, am curious to hear the opinions of those who put so much time and thought into this thread ... the suspense is killing me! :) (Plus, I don't want to drop $100 on parts I don't need if this is a dumbass idea...)
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Re: Dash gin basket development

Postby Badger » Thu Apr 04, 2013 12:57 am

hmmmm. Vapor speed is something I haven't thought about. Is the idea that slower vapor will more likely condense and fall back when it hits the botanicals (and thus be drained in a gin basket design)?

Would bubble plates below the dephlag just impede that velocity then? I suppose if you've already made cuts previously, the plates wouldn't provide a whole lot of advantage.

So I'd like to utilize as much of my Dash kit as possible. It would be possible (with a reducer) to make the left-side T (on the diagram above) a 2"-er while keeping everything else the same. Would going from a 4" column to 2" basket provide similar vapor acceleration as going from a 2" column to a 1" basket? I'm not a math guy but I know it wouldn't be exact. Would it be enough?

I'm trying to decide whether to just continue suspending the botanicals in my column (and wait for an official gin basket offering) or to buy the parts to try this idea. The summer gin season is just around the corner so I need to decide soon! :)
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Re: Dash gin basket development

Postby Monty » Thu Apr 04, 2013 1:44 am

Wouldn't the easiest solution to increase the vapor speed entering the basket be to add a centering collar to the joint between the 90 and the basket? I'm thinking of essentially a copper "washer" with a 1" opening that sits just like the 4" bubble plates do, with its own custom gasket. As a side note you could market them as a centering collar for reflux columns, as well.
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Re: Dash gin basket development

Postby Badger » Thu Apr 04, 2013 4:33 am

Thanks, Fester, for addressing my questions. It's now obvious that my above mockup is inadequate at best, and certainly will not be much better than what I'm already doing. I think I'll just wait for the eventual SD version. Consider me on the waiting list!
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Re: Dash gin basket development

Postby Monty » Thu Apr 04, 2013 5:40 am

Fester wrote:Dang Monty you are right on the mark. The double duty as centering rings also crossed my mind. Spooky. You physic or something?


Heh, psychic, no. In a process/equipment oriented business, yes.
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Re: Dash gin basket development

Postby UZGin » Mon Apr 08, 2013 5:07 pm

Fester wrote:Whew, its been busy for me lately. Haven't had much time to keep up here.

It should work Badger. If you wanted more botanicals you could just add a short section of TC pipe between the 4x4x3 Tee and the 4x2 reducer.

I guess its high time I got another prototype made to keep trying to develop this. I'd perfer to have access above the botanical Tee to more easily change out baskets, something like this...

DSC06592.JPG


Since the boiler will/should have a neutral charge I figure a simple 2" pipe from the boiler would be fine. The trick, as I understand it, is to really push the boiler hard to get the vapor speed up to get a good extraction.
Wiser folks than me have pointed out that 2" may be too big for the basket housing. 3/4 to 1" may be more ideal to really increase the vapor speed. That would mean hanging a lot of metal off of a smallish connection and that scares me a mite.

Will be away for about a week travelling around China and I don't expose my laptop to the risk but I'll try to check in if Tan lets me use her notebook.



Looking really good!
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Re: Dash gin basket development

Postby FullySilenced » Tue Apr 09, 2013 12:04 am

Good Seeing you UZGIN hope all is well with you sir....

Anything new in your life... awards, kids, speeding tickets?
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Re: Dash gin basket development

Postby UZGin » Sun Apr 14, 2013 9:56 am

FullySilenced wrote:Good Seeing you UZGIN hope all is well with you sir....

Anything new in your life... awards, kids, speeding tickets?


Tons! Will be a bit more active now that the wine 'vintage' has calmed down...time for Distilling!
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