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Dash gin basket development

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Re: Dash gin basket development

Postby crozdog » Sat Sep 22, 2012 12:56 pm

Hi Guys, found this on hendricks. interestingly they use both boiled and vapour infused botanicals as well as the addition of there once blended.

They state the botanicals used, but not the ratio.

http://www.sightunseen.com/2010/10/hend ... -scotland/

enjoy

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Re: Dash gin basket development

Postby stubbydrainer » Sat Sep 22, 2012 1:20 pm

thanks Croz
an interesting read and excellent pictures
good on ya ( place thumbs up smiley here )
I get excited when I dilute my spirits to 40% ABV...... It means I get more to drink more often
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Re: Dash gin basket development

Postby YHB » Sat Sep 22, 2012 6:10 pm

I like that
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Re: Dash gin basket development

Postby YHB » Sat Sep 22, 2012 7:37 pm

Looking at it again.

With the vapour passing through the botanicals in and upward direction I can visualise them being "liftedf" and kept in a losely packed state, would this configuration not tend to compress them and perhaps block the vapour path?
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Re: Dash gin basket development

Postby FullySilenced » Sun Sep 23, 2012 2:27 am

The gin article that was posted talked about having to reduce the botanicals that had a lot of oils.. as in lime, orange and couple others i am sure thats why the overpowering flavors came through... just reduce those components back to allow the others to develop... did you notice they blend after the distill so they can't call it dry gin...

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Re: Dash gin basket development

Postby Philter » Sun Sep 23, 2012 9:41 am

These ideas for a Gin basket are great. I found these inline filters which may stimulate a different design, and would look great with a glass outer.
img-dscn0040.jpg

img-dscn0043.jpg


I wouldn't mind having a go at making Gin, but want to master the Dash 2 using neutrals first.
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Re: Dash gin basket development

Postby the Doctor » Sun Sep 23, 2012 10:55 am

punkin wrote:We'd only need the filter part, they'd fit straight into a 2" tc section.


that filter looks perfect, long so lots of vapour contact with the botanicals...
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Re: Dash gin basket development

Postby Philter » Sun Sep 23, 2012 11:53 am

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Re: Dash gin basket development

Postby Philter » Sun Sep 23, 2012 1:36 pm

minime wrote:
Philter wrote:Hopefully ok to post these links
First one
mounted inside this sight glass
Lots of stainless bling here

Excellent links! Thanks for the bookmarks :D


It's amazing what you find when looking for something else :lol:

Fester wrote:I've got to order one of those to play with, Philter. Thanks!


Nothing ventured nothing gained eh? There is some very nice stuff available that compliments the modular design ;)
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Re: Dash gin basket development

Postby UZGin » Thu Sep 27, 2012 10:32 pm

Hi all,

I've been following this thread for a while now, and i'm really impressed with the ideas, designs and concepts being played around with.

I'm a winemaker and have a background in distillation, oil extraction and perfumery. I thought i'd get involved in the mix!

The whole idea of the Gin head is vapour distillation using ethanol, further down the still. This allows the Gin producer to avoid having to flavour the base before distillation and rely purely on skill to carry the correct amount and distribution of congeners across. Instead, you can start with a pure base, and distill it, and introduce the botanicals flavour in a single process. This is far more reliable and may be consistent from run to run. Furthermore, it's more efficient to extract oils via vapour, and especially ethanol.

It's too hard to control the distillation of congeners with crazy blends that gin producers use (as opposed to controlling congeners with whiskey). There are unlimited blending options with the amount of botanicals that are commonly accepted. Each botanical behaves different under extraction and then distillation...each is composed of thousands of aroma molecules that have different vapour pressures and boiling points. The Gin head avoids all of these issues by allowing the distiller to accurately measure each individual component each time and respond to 'vintage/origin-variation' of the botanicals (oil content difference) whilst mid-run, without jeopardizing entire batches.

With this in mind, there are a few important considerations.

By the time the ethanol has run through the still, it should be pure enough by the time it reaches the Gin head to not worry about reflux for separation and purification. Therefore, reflux should be MINIMIZED through the Gin head. Refluxes returned back to the still at this stage will result in losses of flavour as some congeners boil much higher than ethanol. This means using short and wide vessels for Gin heads, spreading the botanicals out.

From a commercial perspective, a sight glass is important, to check the level of any reflux, and the status of the botanicals. Easy access to the basket is required for recharging. Therefore, the Gin head should not be vertically inline with the still head, but as an addition to the side, so the dephlegmator may be utilized to induce full reflux whilst recharging.

Now, as I usually put with any of the distilling forums I take part it, my disclaimer: This does not matter if you are a hobby distiller looking for a cheap drink that resembles or may even be mightily close to a commercial product. This is more of a discerning point for discerning distillers. However, I would like to think that if time and effort were going into designing a piece of equipment, it would revere commercial aspects in a smaller scale. They are, after all, the spirits that everyone is comparing their own by...
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Re: Dash gin basket development

Postby FullySilenced » Fri Sep 28, 2012 1:02 am

UZ writes with such authority.. I liked the post.... thank you sir... I can see a magazine article by him im a thinkin...

and hopefully he will continue to share his knowledge and experience with us...

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Re: Dash gin basket development

Postby the Doctor » Fri Sep 28, 2012 5:55 am

UZgin thank you for your contribution...you have added immensely to this conversation. and it is good to have you aboard. This forum is all about trying to achieve professional results and beyond, both at home and in commercial distilleries. It is always welcome to see a subject as well reasoned and exciting as this thread has become, and you sir have added greatly to that.
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Re: Dash gin basket development

Postby Al Q » Fri Sep 28, 2012 6:40 am

Jeez, I don't watch a thread for a while, and I get a whole page about the state of my feet. I'm keeping my eye on you lot :D
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Re: Dash gin basket development

Postby Philter » Fri Sep 28, 2012 7:56 am

UZGin, thanks for your informative post.

UZGin wrote:From a commercial perspective, a sight glass is important, to check the level of any reflux, and the status of the botanicals.


As a hobbyist, of whom has not ventured down the Gin path (as yet), is there anything specific that indicate when the botanicals are spent?

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Re: Dash gin basket development

Postby the Doctor » Fri Sep 28, 2012 8:04 am

Phil I am no expert inn this field...but have done a couple of vapour infusions now in my simple basket...I found so far the best way to tell if the botanicals are still actively giving flavour is to simply dip my finger into the outgoing flow and smell and taste the spirit...Juniper especially is very strong as is citrus, the more subtle flavours are a bit harder, especially coriander but it is a good simple indicator that the botanicals are still working.
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Re: Dash gin basket development

Postby Philter » Fri Sep 28, 2012 9:27 am

Thanks Doc, sounds simple enough - even for me :D .

I was just wondering if certain botanical(s) were good visual indicators when completely spent. But I guess some botanicals may only be short "lived" in this process.

I'll have a go at making Gin down the track, and ideally do a 10 minute infusion/extraction (50 - 100ml collected) for each botanical. And remember to write detailed notes :lol:

This is one of these practical things where you have to dive in, and train the palate.
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Re: Dash gin basket development

Postby UZGin » Sat Sep 29, 2012 12:50 am

Philter wrote:Thanks Doc, sounds simple enough - even for me :D .

I was just wondering if certain botanical(s) were good visual indicators when completely spent. But I guess some botanicals may only be short "lived" in this process.

I'll have a go at making Gin down the track, and ideally do a 10 minute infusion/extraction (50 - 100ml collected) for each botanical. And remember to write detailed notes :lol:

This is one of these practical things where you have to dive in, and train the palate.


This is actually a very wonderful experiment, and a production process that many commercial operations pursue: Distill each individual component separately and then blend. You'll learn a lot from this and i'll explain why.

But to answer your initial question, it's largely intuitive (I know, contrary to the accurate methods I prefer to employ). It also depends on the botanicals used (which may be infinite) and the form of them (Licorice Root vs Root Powder). You can physically see the botanicals break down. You can begin to form cues and signals as to the point you wish to remove oils from certain botanicals. You may only wish to remove the higher aromatics from Orris Root for example, but not the deeper aromatics. Therefore, you may learn to view the point of deterioration of the Orris Root when you know those oils have been extracted.

However, I believe more in palate than in sight. Your palate is much more sensitive...but visual cues can always make the production process easier and be way to avoid the 'Swiss Cheese Theory' (all the holes line up to disaster, all you needed to save yourself was one visual cue to make it right again).

If you have a close look at the Carter-Head still, the basket is setup in sections. I believe there are some darn good pictures of the Hendricks setup somewhere on the net. This enables the distiller to remove separate botanicals when needed for recharging.

This is where we get into the intense science of Gin production. You could write a thesis on each individual component. You need to treat each individual component separately. They each have a distribution of aromatics that may be separated. Rather than 'add Juniper', you can be more defined 'add Juniper from xxxx origin for first half of run' then 'add Juniper from xxxxxx origin for last half of run'. This gives the power to control the entire process, especially when there are batch differences between botanicals, their harvest quality and origin. They will constantly vary in their oil contents and therefore, how they are treated in the distillery.

Large setups have an entire department dedicated to quality control and oil determination of batches as they are delivered to the distillery.

I hope this helps.

Oh! and thanks to everyone for the kind words! Not sure i've ever had that sort of reception on a forum before!
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Re: Dash gin basket development

Postby stubbydrainer » Sat Sep 29, 2012 7:17 am

G'day UZgin
your info that you have posted is excellent . absolutely top shelf IMHO
I used to make ( well, I will keep it as a back-up) Gin via maceration and have just started the "infusion" technique style of gin , so its all very interesting ATM
I am not the scientific type, and my approach needs an education, I learn best from the " school of hard knocks"
I reckon I am going to enjoy the journey
I get excited when I dilute my spirits to 40% ABV...... It means I get more to drink more often
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Re: Dash gin basket development

Postby Philter » Sat Sep 29, 2012 8:41 am

Thankyou UZGin for sharing such an informative answer, and giving a small insight into the process.

It's definately a fascinating subject, and I now have a better basic understanding of oil extraction, and the possible complexities involved - depending on how far the distiller takes it ;)
I'm more eager than before (becase of your post) to try my hand at Gin, 1 botanical at a time and compare the basic flavours with a store bought product.

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Re: Dash gin basket development

Postby Al Q » Sat Sep 29, 2012 11:02 am

Some great info there from UZgin, and a great insight in to some of the complex methods that the commercial guys go to.
I'd just like to point out to some of our members who haven't made a gin yet that it doesn't need to be that complex though.
It is perfectly possible to make good gin, and even a great gin without the need of sight glasses and the ability to swap out the botanicals mid run, especially when dealing with hobby size volumes.

Please don't take this post as a criticism, it is not meant as one. I just don't want anyone thinking that they can't start experimenting with gin without changing their set up. You can make gin with the simplest of pot stills if you like

Keep the posts coming, cool! 8-)
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Re: Dash gin basket development

Postby FullySilenced » Sat Sep 29, 2012 11:06 am

The simplest of pot stills and one Al Q sock.....

FS :o :shock: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Dash gin basket development

Postby Philter » Sat Sep 29, 2012 6:16 pm

Al Q wrote:I'd just like to point out to some of our members who haven't made a gin yet that it doesn't need to be that complex though.


LOL Al Q, I had no idea how Gin was only made until I read this thread. :D
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Re: Dash gin basket development

Postby UZGin » Sun Sep 30, 2012 10:49 am

Al Q wrote:Some great info there from UZgin, and a great insight in to some of the complex methods that the commercial guys go to.
I'd just like to point out to some of our members who haven't made a gin yet that it doesn't need to be that complex though.
It is perfectly possible to make good gin, and even a great gin without the need of sight glasses and the ability to swap out the botanicals mid run, especially when dealing with hobby size volumes.

Please don't take this post as a criticism, it is not meant as one. I just don't want anyone thinking that they can't start experimenting with gin without changing their set up. You can make gin with the simplest of pot stills if you like

Keep the posts coming, cool! 8-)


No offensive taken at all!

I must reiterate, as per my first post:

UZGin wrote: Now, as I usually put with any of the distilling forums I take part it, my disclaimer: This does not matter if you are a hobby distiller looking for a cheap drink that resembles or may even be mightily close to a commercial product. This is more of a discerning point for discerning distillers. However, I would like to think that if time and effort were going into designing a piece of equipment, it would revere commercial aspects in a smaller scale. They are, after all, the spirits that everyone is comparing their own by...


Considering this is a Gin Basket Development Thread, I thought i'd offer my 2c worth, so StillDragon can offer a high end product to the masses that will suit the entire market, from beginner to master.

Please keep in mind that my view is completely bias. I am a commercial distiller. I sell the product that gets produced from our still (Yup, we use StillDragon!). Unfortunately a sock won't cut it...I require batch-to-batch consistency. If you're after a good example of Gin without worrying about batch to batch consistency and upmost accuracy, A SOCK WILL BE FINE!

I've been chastised on some forums for my commercial bias. Just want to make absolutely clear that the 'sock' method WILL work. But if quality is aimed for (by conventional definition of 'quality'), then dedicated education and equipment is required.

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Re: Dash gin basket development

Postby FullySilenced » Sun Sep 30, 2012 11:42 am

UZ as a professional gin producer is it possible to use spectral analysis or other lab equipment to verify consistency in the finished product (guess this would be for verification of essence levels or oil content ect) or is it all this left to a master blender and his very very highly trained nose and taste buds...to make the consistant product...

do they test the herbs and adjust batch size of the botanicals due to batch to batch variations? or is that possible

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Re: Dash gin basket development

Postby UZGin » Sun Sep 30, 2012 7:33 pm

FullySilenced wrote:UZ as a professional gin producer is it possible to use spectral analysis or other lab equipment to verify consistency in the finished product (guess this would be for verification of essence levels or oil content ect) or is it all this left to a master blender and his very very highly trained nose and taste buds...to make the consistant product...

do they test the herbs and adjust batch size of the botanicals due to batch to batch variations? or is that possible

FS


It's absolutely possible, but not overly practical.

A GCMS machine will certainly pick up the chemical constituents of aroma/flavor molecules that are extracted. The problem is how incredibly accurate the GCMS is...

This is how the world of perfumery operates. It's especially true when large fragrance and flavour companies wish to deconstruct a competing company's new fragrance. However, there are little tricks to make this 'copying' more difficult. For instance, by using proprietary molecules (brand new synthetics that have been approved by the right authority)...or (the one I like)...add very small amounts of natural oils that are undetectable by the human nose, but easily picked up by a GCMS.

Each essential/naturally occurring oil is composed of 100s - 10,000s of molecules...the GCMS machine will pick up on every one of them. Giving the sneaky competitive operator a list a mile long. Only a highly skilled GCMS operator can decipher the oil distributions and discount certain oils as decoys...this takes many years of experience. We do not yet have the technology to do this with high efficacy.

A suggestion may be to simply discard the molecules in low amounts. But not every molecule is equal...it take a fraction of an Aldehyde to overpower anything else, and may be vitally important to the flavor/fragrance.

If this were utilised in Gin, you would get the same problem, large readouts due to high naturally occurring oils being present. However, you may be able to ensure consistency in blends by noting the same distribution of molecules present from batch-to-batch.

EDIT: Alternatively, you can cause the oils to literally drop out of solution and then analyse them. Simple additions of water and then separating the hydrosol are required. A separation funnel is used for this. With decent sampling, this may be used as indicative of entire batches to ensure consistency.

You're absolutely correct, they do test botanicals mainly for oil content rather than aroma/flavor molecules and adjust weights of each component accordingly.

In other large operations they distill each botanical separately and then blend.

Some just leave it completely to blending different batches.

It's all up to the 'house-style' of the Gin...

EDIT: SORRY TOTALLY OFF TOPIC. Let's get back onto designing a kick-ass Gin head!
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Re: Dash gin basket development

Postby UZGin » Sun Sep 30, 2012 9:36 pm

I'd have the still take a 90 degree angle into the Gin Basket, rather than curve 180 degrees downward, to minimize reflux.

I would have the bleed off valve at the bottom of the gin head attach to still column to easily return the amount of reflux that occurs (you'll be surprised at the amount).

I would then have the pipe section following the Gin head, come off the side of the Gin head, rather than directly from the top. This way, one may access the Gin head from the top of the unit.

A bit less messy perhaps?

I'd say the 8 inch Gin head is good for a 4 inch - 6 inch column still, you'd want a 10-12inch Gin head for your largest setups.
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Re: Dash gin basket development

Postby FullySilenced » Sun Sep 30, 2012 9:47 pm

Why not something like a revolver has... say instead a figure 8 you drain the liquid in the base unless you leave room for it in a cup like shape... then then rotate a re-loadable chamber into place... this maintains the process with minimal down time no unhooking of any plumbing, using cartridges maybe more than a hobbyist would need but commercially maybe more viable.

Using this type of system would allow the larger users to batch blend the herbs, making them somewhat uniform for larger batches of product... may not be needed as the final product may go into a larger pre-bottling container

FS

UZ what part of the world are you located in BTW if you don't mind sharing that one

One other thought without giving away a formula aprox how many pounds of botanicals would be used per say
100 gallons of finished gin so realistic sizing of the basket can be put in place...
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Re: Dash gin basket development

Postby UZGin » Sun Sep 30, 2012 11:29 pm

FullySilenced wrote:
UZ what part of the world are you located in BTW if you don't mind sharing that one

One other thought without giving away a formula aprox how many pounds of botanicals would be used per say
100 gallons of finished gin so realistic sizing of the basket can be put in place...


Australia.

We'd be looking at 25 - 40 g/L of 45% still charge.

So...for a 250L still charge, up to 10kg of botanicals.


Fester wrote:
OK, but you will need a ladder.



Not a problem, using a ladder platform to check the bubble plates anyway, vodka still setup...max plates!

Fester wrote:
You don't want that to contaminate the boiler charge. The thumper juice (or gin head bottoms) is some powerful stuff that will carry over to the next botanical infusion. The whole idea of Carter-Head is to NOT let the juice return to the boiler. And the volume is not much at all.



There's no way to measure the aroma distribution and quality of the reflux bleed off in the Gin head..it'll be different all the time. At most it'll become a blending component, in which there will have to be many separate containers required, and some consequential losses. We'd lose control of the blend at this step whilst losing valuable product. A Carter-Head doesn't need to return reflux to the boiler, it has minimal reflux, it also sits well above the still (on another level in fact), at a 90 degree angle of the column.

Remember we're using neutral spirit to infuse botanicals. If we can't measure it, it's better served back in the still to re-infuse. We're using a similar setup to a vodka still. If it contaminates the still-charge, by the time it runs past the dephlegmator, it's neutral again, but this time, we can measure and control the level of infusion.

Fester wrote:
The hard part is the basket inside the housing. It needs to fit tight enough to force the vapors through the botanicals and not just vent up past them along the sides but not so tight that the user needs to fight loading and removing the basket. There are few factories that will want to make this in such limited quantities but nothing is impossible, at worst it is just more expensive.



Is it possible to make it out of perforated SS? Much like an actual Carter Head? It won't take much vapour to extract oil from botanicals...ethanol IS a wonderful solvent!
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Re: Dash gin basket development

Postby FullySilenced » Mon Oct 01, 2012 1:16 am

UZ,

Thanks again for sharing, based on the gr per L of botanicals using the bulkiest of the herbs in a gin formula,
an approximation of max basket size could be calculated...

I am still amazed by the expertise found in this forum... engineers, teachers, craftsman, distillers all of you.

FS
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Re: Dash gin basket development

Postby UZGin » Mon Oct 01, 2012 9:43 am

FullySilenced wrote:
I am still amazed by the expertise found in this forum... engineers, teachers, craftsman, distillers all of you.

FS


Sounds like the makings of one of the best technical spirit distillation forums on the net!
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Re: Dash gin basket development

Postby FullySilenced » Mon Oct 01, 2012 2:25 pm

Reading about a distillery in AU that uses juniper berries ,finger lime, iron bark, wattleseed, river mint and lemon myrtle as the botanicals in their AU Gin. Another AU distillery uses Wild Lime, Cinnamon Myrtle and Illawarra Plum and then does seven separate distillations – one for each botanical. Another one uses
Juniper, Angelica root, Orris root, Citrus peel, Caraway , Coriander,
Aniseed Myrtle, Elderflower, Mistletoe, Passionflower, Shepherd’s purse and a few undisclosed ones as well.

Thought this information might be fun for someone thinking of ginning...

It looks like you can just juniper berries and basically anything you want to make a product that floats your particular boat... and call it gin....

FS
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Re: Dash gin basket development

Postby Bushman » Mon Oct 01, 2012 2:28 pm

FullySilenced wrote:Reading about a distillery in AU that uses juniper berries ,finger lime, iron bark, wattleseed, river mint and lemon myrtle as the botanicals in their AU Gin. Another AU distillery uses Wild Lime, Cinnamon Myrtle and Illawarra Plum and then does seven separate distillations – one for each botanical. Another one uses
Juniper, Angelica root, Orris root, Citrus peel, Caraway , Coriander,
Aniseed Myrtle, Elderflower, Mistletoe, Passionflower, Shepherd’s purse and a few undisclosed ones as well.

Thought this information might be fun for someone thinking of ginning...

It looks like you can just juniper berries and basically anything you want to make a product that floats your particular boat... and call it gin....

FS

Is finger lime the same as Buddha's Hand?

Edit: just googled it and it is not the same.
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Re: Dash gin basket development

Postby UZGin » Mon Oct 01, 2012 2:31 pm

FullySilenced wrote:
It looks like you can just juniper berries and basically anything you want to make a product that floats your particular boat... and call it gin....

FS


Spot on.

As long as the dominant character is Juniper, it's Gin.

But the cacophony of 'natives' available to Australian Gin producers may be a double-edged sword.

Interesting and unique on one hand, hard to find commercial acceptance on the other.
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Re: Dash gin basket development

Postby stubbydrainer » Fri Oct 12, 2012 6:17 pm

I was wondering on progress Fester, any closer to a marketable product ?
I get excited when I dilute my spirits to 40% ABV...... It means I get more to drink more often
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Re: Dash gin basket development

Postby crozdog » Tue Oct 30, 2012 6:00 pm

Hi fester,

a couple of comments
1. I can't wait to try 1 of these units. have just got 5 tea balls to start experimenting in the mean time...
2. how big will the baskets be? Just been thinking about UZgin's comments re using 25-45g botanicals/l. What is the "average size run going to be? 5l? 10l? 20l? It will determine the size not only of the basket but the whole unit.
3. You have been talking about making multiple "juices" swapping in different baskets of botanicals in order to blend the output or make a strong essence. I think anyone undertaking that that exercise would need smaller baskets while, someone who simply wanted to load the basket with all botanicals needed to do a run & running it from start to finish would need a bigger basket. Or have the ability to stack smaller baskets on top of each other inside the housing (a bit like hendricks have a different section for each botanical) :ugeek:
4. The fact that many can only source some botanicals as ground powder also needs to be considered i.e. how is the powder retained in the basket?

Guess i'm trying to say that there are a few other design considerations that i reckon need examining.

Cheers
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Re: Dash gin basket development

Postby crozdog » Tue Oct 30, 2012 11:18 pm

Hi Fester,

i understand the reasoning behind making individual extracts & blending, & like you am consciously incompetent however I'd like to jump right in ;-) & learn from others mistakes then make my own. lol After all this isn't new territory.

One idea may be to have a "standard" housing (4"?) which contains several baskets. that way it is up to the individual if they want to load em all up for a single run, or load & run each one separately.

like you i have a heap of ideas i want to try using other botanicals.

The comment about run size is pretty important in sizing the basket if doing a single run i.e. a 10l run could have up to 450g of botanicals - weight is one thing, but how much volume does it take up?

let me drop you an email tomorrow with some calcs I've ben working on.

Cheers
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Re: Dash gin basket development

Postby Lucky Liqueur » Wed Oct 31, 2012 8:17 am

Sorry; this isn't a 'hardware" question but I feel I have to stick it into the conversation.
UZGin; could you speak to us about Fixatives used in Gin?

Elsewhere on the Net, Al Qaemist writes:
orris root, angelica root and bergamot orange peel are all fixatives used in gins, I'm sure there will be more. . . .
I personally wouldn't make a gin without either orris or angelica (never got hold of bergamont) as the flavours really change over time, even with fixatives. I find it still takes about 3 weeks for the flavour to "fix" . . . .
I store in bulk for about a month before bottling to get a consistent batch . . . .
I have a recipe that tastes fantastic right off the still, but a few weeks down the line it gets really floral - I just wish I could keep that original taste.


1) I'd be interested to learn if "good" fixatives are vitamised herbs or ground powders.
2) If I had too much Basket Juice from hobby production I'd chuck it into the Tails container and fix it up later.
3) My biggest run size to-date was about 10L - I used half a dozen herbs all mixed together . . . it would be vital to have an easy way to swop-out the basket if you're going to go down the route of separate runs on each flavour component. As crozdog wrote: basket size will be important as will the possibility to stack baskets.

UZGin; do you have some thought on the practice of stacking baskets?

Regards
As I get older I worry about thinking too small.
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Re: Dash gin basket development

Postby FullySilenced » Thu Nov 01, 2012 3:45 am

put a hat section over the inverted centering ring.. and nothing would fall down the column unless your liquid build was above capacity...
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Re: Dash gin basket development

Postby FullySilenced » Thu Nov 01, 2012 11:01 am

die set.jpg
You could take the idea that Coop has then put a cam operated press on top and use 4" by 6" or 6" by 6" sanitary piping with a screen on one end as a cartridge.
The die set is heavy duty much more than needed but imagine a cartridge in between the upper and lower plate with the vapor flowing up through a bored hole and out the top headed to the condenser. Seals could be set in the upper and lower plate to seal on the screened pipe cartridge.

Kind of like combining these two photos with coops idea... the cartridge could be put in like the orange when its done put the column in full reflux then open the cam and replace the cartridge (where the orange is).
Tighten the cam and the set closed and seals the ends and turn the reflux off and make more gin.

anyway its an idea to kick around....
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Re: Dash gin basket development

Postby stubbydrainer » Thu Nov 01, 2012 11:10 am

F.S
that is brilliant , ( place clapping hands smiley here )
in my mind's eye 1/4" to 3/8" release movement in the clamp would be heaps of room to remove a "cassette" of botanicals
I get excited when I dilute my spirits to 40% ABV...... It means I get more to drink more often
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Re: Dash gin basket development

Postby FullySilenced » Thu Nov 01, 2012 11:59 am

Correct Stubby no more movement than that would be needed depending on how far you recess your silicone seals.... would not take a hell of a lot of pressure to seal.. since there is really no internal pressure in the column a pound or two... could be produced out of fairly light materials except for the plates with the seals.

Cassette change times might be so short you would not even have to go to full reflux... but i hate to waste good neutral
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Re: Dash gin basket development

Postby stubbydrainer » Thu Nov 01, 2012 12:04 pm

FS
yep that's right
the only thing is to have the thing offset , so no juice enters back to the boiler
I keep thinking fester has nailed it though, with the basket change-out thru the bottom
I get excited when I dilute my spirits to 40% ABV...... It means I get more to drink more often
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Re: Dash gin basket development

Postby FullySilenced » Thu Nov 01, 2012 12:08 pm

Well coop had a built in cup holding the residuals and you could bleed it off slowly like a boka so nothing gets back in the boiler...
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Re: Dash gin basket development

Postby FullySilenced » Thu Nov 01, 2012 12:48 pm

I was showing a concept ... again the die set was an idea to show the plates and pins. may raise and lower with a small rack and pinion... on two pins set across the axis ... might even look like two of these flanges with pins where the holes are and a cam riser on each pin, with the cartridge and seals between the flanges... center hole would be smaller in comparison to the flange size... flange is just for reference... i bet LOO can draw something up from what i have described...
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Re: Dash gin basket development

Postby FullySilenced » Thu Nov 01, 2012 1:02 pm

You could even put stiff springs on the pins to open the two flanges up to insert the cartridge... then cam lock it closed......
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Re: Dash gin basket development

Postby stubbydrainer » Thu Nov 01, 2012 1:12 pm

Cooperville wrote:I will see what I can come up with on my sketcher doodle!!


:lol: :lol:
I get excited when I dilute my spirits to 40% ABV...... It means I get more to drink more often
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Re: Dash gin basket development

Postby FullySilenced » Thu Nov 01, 2012 1:58 pm

I think 4 inches diameter time 12 inches long may be too much of a cartridge for what the small guys would need, i was thinking 4 to 6 inches long... but to could be upscaled for a micro to 6 inch diameter or bigger all depends on what the boiler load is and what amount of finished product they are shooting for...
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Re: Dash gin basket development

Postby FullySilenced » Thu Nov 01, 2012 3:30 pm

By Jove I thinks he's got it! ... or at least some of it...
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Re: Dash gin basket development

Postby FullySilenced » Fri Nov 02, 2012 12:57 am

small gear rack and pinion would lift or lower it as long as one of the rods was a rack similar to this one:
http://www.huco.com/products.asp?p=true&cat=283

add a small handle attached to a pinion gear and there ya go... a lift mechanism...
small spur gears to use as a pinion: http://www.huco.com/products.asp?p=true&cat=267

... like a drill press as Fester says....

and for a basket, form 100 mesh ss into a cup shape like a freeze plug for a car and drive it into the bottom of the bubble tee or sanitary pipe section.... if you ever need to remove it drive it out and clean or replace it. No new pipes or t sections required just a modular drive in screen ... True SD style
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Re: Dash gin basket development

Postby UZGin » Fri Nov 02, 2012 11:59 pm

Hi all!

Sorry i've been MIA for a little while, i've been run off my feet recently.

I'll try my best to answer/address the following questions/statements.

Fester wrote:I feel the best approach is to distill each botanical separately and then carefully blend them together and add a measured dose of that to neutral to make gin. I can certainly see where someone with enough experience could load the basket with all the botanicals at once and make a fine gin in one pass but I'm nowhere near to that level of competence.
I don't know yet what the dimensions of the housing or basket will be, just the one prototype that has been built so far.
The only way that I can see coping with a powered botanical is to tie it up in a muslin bag. While not ideal, it is cheap and disposable.

I doubt I get this right the first time or two but if I can get enough prototypes built and in the hands of distillers like you there is every reason to believe that a classic Dash design will develop.

I know this is more than just for gin. Once developed this could unlock a wide range of flavors. I tried apples but the flavor didn't carry over. I'd like to understand more about why certain botanicals carry over and others do not. The gin botanicals are usually dried. You recon that has anything at all to do with it?


This depends largely on the vapour pressures and boiling points of what the 'apple scent' is composed of. The apple scent is an ester-based scent, making it quite fleeting. Apple scents are hard to infuse through distillation purely due to the logistics of distillation...it gets hot, biochemical reactions in the apple itself convert these esters. Furthermore, apples are largely composed of water, it takes a LOT of apples to carry a scent across.

Regarding distillation of separate botanicals. Some Gin Houses do it, others don't...it seems to be a stylistic choice. My preference is all botanicals in, I find it aids in quickening the fixative nature and properties imparted by orris, angelica and bitter orange peel.

Lucky Liqueur wrote: UZGin; could you speak to us about Fixatives used in Gin?

Elsewhere on the Net, Al Qaemist writes:
orris root, angelica root and bergamot orange peel are all fixatives used in gins, I'm sure there will be more. . . .
I personally wouldn't make a gin without either orris or angelica (never got hold of bergamont) as the flavours really change over time, even with fixatives. I find it still takes about 3 weeks for the flavour to "fix" . . . .
I store in bulk for about a month before bottling to get a consistent batch . . . .
I have a recipe that tastes fantastic right off the still, but a few weeks down the line it gets really floral - I just wish I could keep that original taste.

1) I'd be interested to learn if "good" fixatives are vitamised herbs or ground powders.
2) If I had too much Basket Juice from hobby production I'd chuck it into the Tails container and fix it up later.
3) My biggest run size to-date was about 10L - I used half a dozen herbs all mixed together . . . it would be vital to have an easy way to swop-out the basket if you're going to go down the route of separate runs on each flavour component. As crozdog wrote: basket size will be important as will the possibility to stack baskets.

UZGin; do you have some thought on the practice of stacking baskets?

Regards


Fixatives are paramount. I understand it can appear to a number of new hobbyists as a bit of 'hocus pocus' in Gin production, but it's a true chemical concept, and one that many industries that surround us rely on. For example, in the flavours and fragrance industry, specifically the 'functional perfumery' industry, fixatives are highly useful for making scents 'stick' and 'linger' (something the French call 'sillage'). For example, dishwashing detergent...lemon fresh? Citrus scents are highly volatile, notice how colognes don't last very long? They tend to be citrus-based (makes us feel clean)...getting a citrus-based scent to last a 70+ degree Celsius water environment is a challenge...especially without fixatives...

The effect of fixatives in perfumery is the same as gin production, it 'pulls' all the other aromatic elements together and keeps them bound for some time, giving great substantivity. Orris Root is a popular one in both industries, as is Angelica Root. The 'root' of this concept is the vast number of OH groups associated with the aroma molecules present in these ingredients. More OH groups, more bonding with other molecules -> higher fixative properties.

I prefer whole herbs rather than powders (where possible), as the oil content tends to be higher with whole herbs. Ever notice how powdered cooking herbs tend to lose their potency after a length of time?

The practice of stacking baskets is quite popular, especially in setups such as those made by CARL distilleries. I like it.

FullySilenced wrote:put a hat section over the inverted centering ring.. and nothing would fall down the column unless your liquid build was above capacity...


You pointed out the first thing I noticed about that design (which is actually quite cool by the way).

Problem: You don't want anything falling into the still...and it will. Even with a hat over, I wouldn't want even the slightest powder dissolved in the reflux liquid spilling over, into the still. This would require a big clean up and full deconstruction of the still post-operation. Small amounts of these powders or botanicals are not just a source for microbial spoilage, but also for corrosion. Worst thing is, I would need to clean it out every time as I could never be sure that nothing fell through. I understand that these generally aren't considerations of hobbyists, but they are serious considerations for commercial operators. Time is money, and quality is paramount.

Imagine the time taken to inspect each and every down comer to find the chip of Cassia Bark or Angelica Root that fell through?

I would like to see a good distinction between the distillation column, and the gin basket. Side by side, not on top of each other.

Fester wrote:Law of Ohms has been talking to me about this. It is an option but adding a sight glass might be difficult.
Yes it is available with TC ends. My concern is that only the very bottom of the basket/filter is exposed to the vapors. Am I wrong?

sani Y.JPG


Reflux is the issue here. Vapours will go up into the strainer, and reflux back down. Unless the botanicals are compressed enough, in which the vapours will bypass it completely. But quite interesting nonetheless.

Cooperville wrote:FS here is a quick diagram of what i have in mind for the cartridge loading system so far not including the rack and pinion system the spring tension will push and hold down the cartridge/tee/pipe
i figure if you have 6 t-pieces ie: dash 2 you could use 5 plates and then have the 5th t-piece above deflag and use it that section to hold your basket this would enable you to have a visual on the botanicals also
i still think you would need to have the china hat system/plate just above deflag to stop condensate from returning to the boiler this would mean a coupling would have to be welded to side of t-piece to fit a v/v for waste drainage maybe
one thing i am worried about with this design is if 3 bolts/rods would be enough to seal the front section where we would have omitted a tie rod

food for thought but i think with out to much engineering we have got ourselves a cheap inline carter head style gin basket

sorry about the drawings
hopefully loo can come up with some ideas

Im not to keen on the inspection port idea Fester as i dont think the botanicals will have complete contact with vapour

as you all know im no expert im just throwing some of my ideas out there as they come to mind
shoot me down as you wish!


An inspection port is recommended for full control of the extraction rate.

Inline Carter-Head is actually an oxymoron, the Carter-Head has always been offset for safety and logistical reasons.

This design has too many pieces for a distillation apparatus that is actually quite simple. I fail to see how this is cheaper and more reliable than readily available examples. Essentially a thick canister, with a removable top, where a basket is inserted and is sat on a lip inside the canister, holding it above the input port. An input port down the bottom, and an exit port up the top. A rod centred into the basket with a loop at the top of the rod, you use a tool to hook onto the rod, and quickly remove the basket (to not burn your hands).

1 housing, 1 basket, 1 top...

That said, it's quite an innovative design. For home distillers, awesome...for the commercial distillers, it's not viable, purely because there are other examples with better efficacy and quality available.

I hope that helps. Sorry if I offend (seem to have a tendency to do that on another particular forum)...but it's been a long week of product releases and journalists...
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