the modern distiller

SPP

SPP

Postby highball » Wed Sep 12, 2012 7:29 am

I put in a order for 2 literes of SPP from a vender in vietnam, sounds like its a month or so from my door. Does anyone here use Spp.
highball
 
Posts: 13
Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2012 5:22 am
Location: Brisbane Australia

Re: SPP

Postby Al Q » Wed Sep 12, 2012 7:40 am

Yes, I do. I run it in my VM, and have ran it in a stumpy VM (short column with one third the packing of the full column) for silver rum. It produces excellent neutral, but is prone to flooding as (I believe) it holds on much more liquid that SS scubbies. Its certainly denser packing, and harder to breath through the column than with the srubbies. You may find you need to run at reduced power.

What are your expectations? What you going to be running it in?
User avatar
Al Q
 
Posts: 160
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2012 10:01 am
Location: Scotchland

Re: SPP

Postby Rumdrinker » Wed Sep 19, 2012 11:37 pm

Hey Al Q,

I'm interested in using SPP in my 4" LM/VM build & would appreciate your opinion on SPP - In your experience do you think SPP is worth the extra $$ compared to copper or S/S scrubbies packing?

Better quality? Faster take off? Stability? Any info will be greatly appreciated ;)

I'm keen to get some & try it but don't want to burn $$ for the fun of it as it is expensive to pack a 4" column with SPP.

Anyone else here packed a 4" column with SPP?
Rumdrinker
 
Posts: 35
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2012 11:27 pm
Location: Central Queensland

Re: SPP

Postby Rumdrinker » Thu Sep 20, 2012 1:02 am

minime wrote:I currently have SPP in a 3" pipe about 30 inches or so of packing. Although stable it doesn't get me over the 94% barrier which is exactly what I needed for white rum. In a 2" column with 42" of SPP I could not get away from azeotrope no matter how poorly the column was operated.
I highly recommend SPP for those people looking for superior neutral but it is material that refuses to be pushed to high output.


Very impressive results, at those column lengths the SPP is much more affordable & can be justified.

What length columns would you recommend for a 3" & 4" to easily acheive azeotrope using SPP?

Cheers
Rumdrinker
 
Posts: 35
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2012 11:27 pm
Location: Central Queensland

Re: SPP

Postby Al Q » Thu Sep 20, 2012 4:40 am

Rumdrinker wrote:Better quality? Faster take off? Stability?


If you are after really neutral spirit at the cost of speed, then it ticks the boxes. You need to run it with less power else it foods the column.
You can run a 2" packed with SPP and have the usual take off speed of a column that size and the quality will be excellent, but increase the take off too much ( and therefore reduce the reflux ratio) then the quality of the product will suffer the same as if you did this with any other packing.

I recently did a run at 1800w with a single bubble plate under the column, mid hearts I was running at 2.2l/h. The spirit had the same "hotness" to it I would get when running too fast with scrubbers, but as its all going to be redistilled it was acceptable.
If I just wanted to run fast with a 2", I'd run the bubble plate and scrubber filled column config, you can push about 2500w into the column and therefore increase the take off rate without reducing the RR to much.
User avatar
Al Q
 
Posts: 160
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2012 10:01 am
Location: Scotchland

Re: SPP

Postby YHB » Thu Sep 20, 2012 5:53 am

This is a packing manufacturer with a product very similar to your SPP.

The table indicates a relationship to diameter of column and size of SPP ( or Fenske spiral in this case ) they also indcate the difference in the number of theoretical plates per meter.

If I am reading this data correctly the reduction in effectiveness between 2" and 3" appears to be quite significant just as Minime describes.

http://www.tower-packing.cn/s02/product ... 77833.html
User avatar
YHB
 
Posts: 61
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2012 4:18 pm
Location: Yorkshire

Re: SPP

Postby FullySilenced » Thu Sep 20, 2012 8:10 am

But if you look at that chart the size increased in the fenske coils and that changed the number of plates in theory... if you used the 3.3 ones in a larger column the plate value should remain the same just way more of them little suckers in the larger column..

well that how i see it anyways but i may be incorrect in my tinkin
FullySilenced
 
Posts: 2276
Joined: Tue Aug 28, 2012 12:30 pm
Location: Upper South-Central Part of the County

Re: SPP

Postby Rumdrinker » Tue Sep 25, 2012 10:50 pm

punkin wrote:We are looking into this atm.


Manufacturing & selling SPP?
Would be great to have SPP in various sizes readily available :D
Rumdrinker
 
Posts: 35
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2012 11:27 pm
Location: Central Queensland

Re: SPP

Postby FullySilenced » Wed Sep 26, 2012 8:24 am

And don't forget Fester is trying to keep a "tigress" happy..

Full time job in itself around my house just trying to live day to day...

FS
FullySilenced
 
Posts: 2276
Joined: Tue Aug 28, 2012 12:30 pm
Location: Upper South-Central Part of the County

Re: SPP

Postby Spud1700 » Wed Sep 26, 2012 8:41 am

YHB wrote:This is a packing manufacturer with a product very similar to your SPP.

The table indicates a relationship to diameter of column and size of SPP ( or Fenske spiral in this case ) they also indcate the difference in the number of theoretical plates per meter.

If I am reading this data correctly the reduction in effectiveness between 2" and 3" appears to be quite significant just as Minime describes.

http://www.tower-packing.cn/s02/product ... 77833.html


Would it be worth doing a group buy through this mob for people based in Australia? I am not sure if I would want it but I am sure there would be a lot of people who do? Just a thought?
User avatar
Spud1700
 
Posts: 519
Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2012 6:46 pm
Location: Brisbane Australia

Re: SPP

Postby chill » Wed Sep 26, 2012 9:50 am

Manu from Hanoi also sells SPP. I just noticed this, I have never used it. He would be a good person to get on this forum too.

Chuck
chill
 
Posts: 494
Joined: Fri Aug 31, 2012 9:10 am
Location: We(s)t Coast of Canada

Re: SPP

Postby snoozer » Thu Dec 06, 2012 12:06 am

Hi guys,
Did my first run with spp last w/e, & it worked well (2" VM) I'm not real sure how to run it yet but ran low wines thru at full power (2400W) with valve fully open. I didn't measure offtake rate but around 1.5L/hr? measured 95% temp corrected and smelt quite clean.
I need to learn how to run this spp properly but was quite happy on my first try. It didn't flood at 2400W for me. I read it should be taken off with RR about 2.5.
I tried etching once but the iron chloride solution was not strong enough to be effective (didnt darken the spirals), so will try again with a stronger solution.
snoozer
 
Posts: 2
Joined: Wed Nov 21, 2012 3:09 pm

Re: SPP

Postby snoozer » Thu Dec 06, 2012 11:51 am

It was low wines @ 32%.
snoozer
 
Posts: 2
Joined: Wed Nov 21, 2012 3:09 pm

Re: SPP

Postby Al Q » Fri Dec 07, 2012 6:38 am

Like mini, something isn't quite right. The output should be much higher, and also I'd love to know why it is not flooding.

Are you doing anything with centring collars, or strange column configs?
User avatar
Al Q
 
Posts: 160
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2012 10:01 am
Location: Scotchland

Re: SPP

Postby highball » Thu Dec 13, 2012 6:00 am

Here is a great working solution to the flooding problem with SPP. I have a 3ft piece of 4" filled with SPP, there is a 1/2" copper tube that runs through the middle and is connected to one of the original SD adjustable downcomers.

On top is a option for using a bubble plate with or without caps, I wont report any numbers just that it works
highball
 
Posts: 13
Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2012 5:22 am
Location: Brisbane Australia

Re: SPP

Postby DAD » Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:20 am

I too started out with an SPP flooding issue. I never had the classic puke, but the SPP would rattle or make a sizzling noise in the column. I think the combination of liquid and vapor speed was actually moving the SPP. That's no small feat as this stuff weighs 3.7lbs per liter and there is ~3 litters in the 3" x 30" column.

Today, I have no internals for reflux, collars or downcomers of any kind. However, my SPP is larger than some homemade. Mine's ~6x6mm, and etched. I think there needs to be a discussion on sizing and "etch or not etch."

I also have experimented with two heights of column now. With 2" of copper Scrubbie and 30" of SPP, I can get close to 94% for the entire run (minus tails), but I have to carefully manage the heat (keg over gas).

With 2" of copper Scrubbie, 28" of SPP and 2" of SS Scrubbie on top, I can get ~92% and have less of a power management problem.

FInal Setup- with 2" of copper Scrubbie, 42" of SPP (minime, I made another full gallon) and 6" of SS Scrubbie on top, I can blast away and get an entire run at 94%+. When tails start, the ABV goes to 80% for about 16oz and stops on it's own. I can't get tails below 80%.

I have several thoughts on the differences I've experienced.

I believe 3" x 30" of SPP can achieve enough plates to reach 94%, but there isn't enough height to get a proper temperature gradient going. Or to say it another way, there is so much thermal mass in SPP that the SPP can transfer too much heat to the top! This makes the power adjustment very touchy.

The SS Scrubbie on top slows or disperses the reflux, so that it doesn't just instantly flash when it hits/falls/returns to the top of the SPP.

I don't really need the additional 14" of SPP (as in my Final Setup) to get over 94% ABV, but I need the buffer it creates to allow for a proper temp gradient in the column. I hink there are other ways to create this buffer, but they all add height. This is also where non etched SPP may be better!

With a 14 gallon charge, 12% wash in the keg, approx one hour to heat and stabilize, I can produce 3-300ml foreshots, 6- quarts of heads, hearts, tails all over 94% (for me it is very hard to make cuts at 94%+) and the tails start (I mean they really start) somewhere after this, and ABV drops to ~80% I quit!

This is at a quart, every 12 minutes for the first gallon and then I reduce the power to a quart ever 16 minutes to stave off the tails.

The speed of SPP is there as advertised. But there are other factors to work out.
Ltr r.jpg


All the original Russian SPP articles we started with, are using very small diameter columns, 20-50mm. So, the pictures, shape and size of their SPP was very small and may be perfect for their columns. 50mm+ column, you need to upscale the SPP. I also think most tend to cut the coils too short. The coils should be ~1.5x the diameter. I believe more than half the magic takes place inside the SPP, not on the outside.

Oh, and if you etch it, forget the fire method...even 316 Stainless Steel will rust after being heat treated (ask me how I know). Use ferric acid (this will create a great amount of heat and fumes, do it outside), neutralize with baking soda and let set in acetic acid (lemon juice) for 24 hours.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
User avatar
DAD
 
Posts: 87
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2012 10:00 am
Location: South Central U.S.

Re: SPP

Postby DAD » Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:28 am

Ahh...forget...wattage...I calculate I'm using ~5,000 during heatup and 3,500 there after. I use a bigger charge than I probably should, so I'm very careful during heatup. I'd love to have electric, but it just doesn't work where I am.
User avatar
DAD
 
Posts: 87
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2012 10:00 am
Location: South Central U.S.

Re: SPP

Postby rkr » Wed Jan 09, 2013 10:08 pm

Al Q wrote:Like mini, something isn't quite right. The output should be much higher, and also I'd love to know why it is not flooding.

Are you doing anything with centring collars, or strange column configs?


What are you guys with problems using to hold that SPP? I discussed this with AlQ and he had potscrubber holding them. I use them wirediscs supplied with the SPP and can run 2kW on 2" column without problems. I'd guess that against a scrubber the heavy mass of SPP is compressing the scrubber too much and causing choking.

Slainte, Riku
Last edited by rkr on Wed Jan 09, 2013 10:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
For "Simple low cost stills" -> http://distillers.tastylime.net/newSite/homepage.html#

For "Designing and building automatic stills" -> www.amphora-society.com

I haven't lost me marbles, they are in a bag somewhere.
User avatar
rkr
 
Posts: 17
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2013 4:33 pm

Re: SPP

Postby rkr » Thu Jan 10, 2013 2:04 am

minime wrote:
rkr wrote:I'd guess that against a scrubber the heavy mass of SPP is compressing the scrubber too much and causing choking.


That's a real possibility. SPP is very heavy.

rkr wrote:I use them wirediscs supplied with the SPP and can run 2kW on 2" column without problems.

Using the original retainers supplied in 50mm pipe I was never able to run over 1500 watts without severe flooding. :( I now have the SPP in a 76mm pipe and it maxes out about 2200/2300 watts before flooding. The other problem I've had is I can't seem to push the SPP reliably below azeotrope so I've gone back to scrubbers for making rum. Silver rum is best around 94% IMO.
SPP is an amazing product for making neutral but I find it rather inflexible for anything else. I do have more experiments coming with my 76mm pipe come spring.


What's different then? I have 54mm OD column with 51mm ID. I used the discs supplied and then tapped the column pieces which allowed some 10% more SPP to be inserted, that should actually make mine choke easier. I use 2kW heating element on uninsulated bucket boiler which makes about 1700 W to the column, your start having issues at 1500W. My vaporspeed is 24.6"/s while your's is 25.5"/s assuming all that 1500W goes to your column and 47mm ID - could that be the reason, 0.9"/s difference in vapor speed? Polish guys claimed that closer to 30"/s should be doable so I'm a bit puzzled.

Slainte, Riku
For "Simple low cost stills" -> http://distillers.tastylime.net/newSite/homepage.html#

For "Designing and building automatic stills" -> www.amphora-society.com

I haven't lost me marbles, they are in a bag somewhere.
User avatar
rkr
 
Posts: 17
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2013 4:33 pm

Re: SPP

Postby Al Q » Thu Jan 10, 2013 5:12 am

rkr wrote:What are you guys with problems using to hold that SPP? I discussed this with AlQ and he had potscrubber holding them. I use them wirediscs supplied with the SPP and can run 2kW on 2" column without problems. I'd guess that against a scrubber the heavy mass of SPP is compressing the scrubber too much and causing choking.


Riku, I took your advice and repacked the column without any scrubbers in it. I wont have anything to share anytime soon though as not got anything fermenting right now. When I do get back up and running, It'll be one more thing to cross off as a potential issue.

minime wrote:Nobody is more puzzled than me I tried to ignore the rattling and next thing I knew it flooded right out the VM port and into my collection jar. The only thing I can think of is poor readings from my volt meter and I might be putting in more heat than I think. I will investigate as time goes on but no resolution or quick answers for me


I think I posted this over on the AD site, if it was here sorry for the repost. When my VM floods you get a horrible gurgling sound, near the top of the column. The one time I didn't act quickly enough when running a scrubber packed column, high proof erupted from the top of the column :? Not good.
After hearing some chat about fluidized beds, I took it upon my self not to react to the same gurgling when running the SPP. Unlike mini, my output remained consistent, and at 95.6%. I must have let it gurgle for a good 10 mins before turning down and re-stabilising the column, my nerves couldn't take hovering over the controller ready to cut the power. I might have been able to complete the run like that, maybe not, but I have no desire to find out anytime soon.

AQuietStillIsAHappyStillAL
User avatar
Al Q
 
Posts: 160
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2012 10:01 am
Location: Scotchland

Re: SPP

Postby DAD » Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:07 am

I use ~2" Copper Scrubbie and a SS wire screen on bottom.
bottom r.jpg
The wire and copper haven't been removed for the last five runs.

The biggest change(s) in my procedure, I have removed the column insulation from the top 8", I have a SS Scrubbie on top (to slow/spread the reflux) and leaving a few inches between top of packing and takeoff. Last two or three runs, I could not detect sizzle sound.

I believe the sizzle and flooding comes from the reflux dropping directly on to SPP. If you have seen the glass column Russian videos, he has a flash to boil scenario at the top. I believe I've solved that by decreasing the temperature at the top and giving the reflux a "safe" entry back into the packing. Once the reflux is back in the packing, it then cools the top, establishes a thermal gradient and kills the flash/flood.

Of course I can't see any of this through my SS column, but I've stopped the sizzle!
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
User avatar
DAD
 
Posts: 87
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2012 10:00 am
Location: South Central U.S.

Re: SPP

Postby DrWho » Sun Jan 13, 2013 6:25 am

I too have run SPP (etched) and also ran into flooding issues. Could only run about 1/2 the power that I could with etched scrubbers. The power is only estimated as at that time I was also using a phase angle controller on the 4500 W element. So had no way of actually measuring the power.

Even running with less power the product was good. And the take off rate was still OK.

The column has a sight glass at the top so I can observe the reflux and the top of the packing. In this column it started to flood at the bottom and worked it's way up. Could hear this in the column.

I switched to lava rock (sized 8mm - 11mm, 54mm column), and it too flooded at a lower power setting then the etched scrubbers. Hmm, recalling the pro-pack pdf I built stainless steel mesh cones. These are inserted into the bottom of the column to provide more area for the reflex to fall and the vapor to enter the packing.

Night & day difference. With that and the lava rock I am running 1600 watts into the insulated boiler. So figure at least 1400 watts into the column.

I plan on re-visiting the SPP while using the mesh cones.

Copper_00.JPG


Copper_01.JPG


Next run will have the SPP back in the column. Once that takes place I'll post back.

???
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
User avatar
DrWho
 
Posts: 288
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2013 6:25 am

Re: SPP

Postby DrWho » Sun Jan 13, 2013 12:29 pm

Been feeling a little guilty posting pictures with lava rock in them on a SPP thread. So, since the column is apart for some updates I'll post some better pictures. The column itself is three pieces, connected via sanitary fittings/clamps. Bottom section is 300mm in length, with the center & top sections being 460mm in length.

Pictures:

Copper_03.JPG


Copper_05.JPG


The SPP is about 5X7mm and is home made. Which is why the length varies. The mesh for the cone isn't welded or crimped so I soldered it some so that it held it's shape.

Figure about a month before I post about how well the SPP works with the cones at the bottom of each column section. Have a wash going and will do another shortly thereafter. Then a spirit run with the SPP.

???
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
User avatar
DrWho
 
Posts: 288
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2013 6:25 am

Re: SPP

Postby DrWho » Fri Apr 05, 2013 5:42 am

Have not been able to run for a while, so no new results. But did snap a picture of the previously used retaining mesh. This was with both the SPP & lava rock. They both flooded at much lower power settings then with the scrubbers.

The copper wire X was used to support the mesh as it has very little strength. It basically sat flat at the bottom of each column section.

Copper_903a.jpg

???
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
User avatar
DrWho
 
Posts: 288
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2013 6:25 am

Re: SPP

Postby Al Q » Fri Apr 05, 2013 6:46 am

rkr wrote:What are you guys with problems using to hold that SPP? I discussed this with AlQ and he had potscrubber holding them. I use them wirediscs supplied with the SPP and can run 2kW on 2" column without problems. I'd guess that against a scrubber the heavy mass of SPP is compressing the scrubber too much and causing choking.


Al Q wrote:Riku, I took your advice and repacked the column without any scrubbers in it. I wont have anything to share anytime soon though as not got anything fermenting right now. When I do get back up and running, It'll be one more thing to cross off as a potential issue.



I forgot to give an update, thanks for the thread bump.

I still have flooding issues around the 1900w mark just using the wire discs. So it doesn't look like scrubbers were the cause of this.
User avatar
Al Q
 
Posts: 160
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2012 10:01 am
Location: Scotchland

Re: SPP

Postby manu de hanoi » Thu Apr 11, 2013 6:35 pm

Al Q,
my SPP that you use is smaller than the polish one that riku and minime are using, that's why it floods more more easily, 1900 w is my limit too. I believe on the other hand that it gives a smaller HETP
minime,
You could get lower ABV with SPP if you used a LM instead of a VM. With a VM you always have 50% reflux at least so you cant get low ABV especially on a spirit run. With a LM there is no lower limit on the reflux so you could run it with no reflux like a pot still if you wanted to.
If you still want to get lower ABV using SPP on a VM then the answer is simple : use less SPP in the column.
manu de hanoi
 
Posts: 5
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2013 5:38 pm

Re: SPP

Postby Al Q » Thu Apr 11, 2013 9:16 pm

I'm using polish SPP manu.
User avatar
Al Q
 
Posts: 160
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2012 10:01 am
Location: Scotchland

Re: SPP

Postby manu de hanoi » Thu Apr 11, 2013 9:51 pm

oups I confused the first and 2nd post of the thread sorry :confusion-seeingstars:
manu de hanoi
 
Posts: 5
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2013 5:38 pm

Re: SPP

Postby jake_leg » Fri Apr 12, 2013 5:13 am

Nice one with the cones, Dr ???. I had forgotten all about that.

http://www.artisan-distiller.net/phpBB3 ... f=3&t=6257

Not just for ice cream any more. :lol:
User avatar
jake_leg
 
Posts: 399
Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2013 9:59 am
Location: left a bit.. up a bit...

Re: SPP

Postby DrWho » Sun Apr 14, 2013 8:50 am

That's the Pro-Pak pdf I was posting about earlier. That is, the first link in the link that J_L linked :lol: Grab the pdf and search for Figure 3. :handgestures-thumbupright:

They work a treat. Although I used a mesh with a larger opening then they show, still works.

???
User avatar
DrWho
 
Posts: 288
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2013 6:25 am

Re: SPP

Postby Ultimate quality » Fri May 10, 2013 5:15 am

Here is the filling column I use: http://www.cannoninstrument.com/Pro-PakBulletin.pdf
This is absolutely fantastic.
Cheers
Ultimate quality
 
Posts: 1
Joined: Wed May 08, 2013 10:59 am

Re: SPP

Postby DrWho » Sun May 12, 2013 7:23 am

Finally got a chance to make a run with the SPP and the mesh cones. Wow is all I can say. I didn't measure the ABV in the boiler, but it was likely in the 20% - 25% area (low wines & water). Putting together a dip flask to measure this in the future.

Pumping 2 KW (!) into the insulated boiler, was taking off at over 2L an hour at nearly 96%. It was just pouring out with the top & 2/3's temperatures just sitting there. This is on the VM/LM rig in my show us your rig board thread.

The mesh cones made a world of difference. Forgot to flood the column at the start, so don't know how much power is required to do that. Hopefully I'll remember the next run.

As the run progressed past the halfway point I did have to reduce the takeoff. And what was amazing, is once near the end the 2/3's column temperature went up, a lot. But the top/take-off temperature hardly budged (it went up by 0.2* C from the start of hearts to the end). So the SPP is very good at what it does. And it kept those tails down lower in the column.

A run that would normally taken up to 8 - 9 hours was done in a little over 5 hours.

Note that I pulled heads at a power level of 1.4 KW. I think that could also be increased.

:obscene-drinkingcheers:
???
User avatar
DrWho
 
Posts: 288
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2013 6:25 am

Re: SPP

Postby aqua vitae » Sun May 12, 2013 7:43 am

Congratulations to a successful run :-)
User avatar
aqua vitae
 
Posts: 53
Joined: Sun Jan 27, 2013 8:04 pm
Location: Thou Ancient, Thou Free


Return to Reflux & Packed Column

  • Who is online

    Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest