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How to, product cooler and reflux condenser

How to, product cooler and reflux condenser

Postby jokkman » Thu Jan 09, 2014 10:46 pm

Looking for tips on how to make a product cooler and a reflux condenser (CM type) for my new FAT-FOA
I’m going to build a new “FAT-FOA” in the next mount or so and I have the new design almost ready but …. The thing is that I want to make the reflux condenser as small as possible (in height)
and the same with the product cooler. I’m also going to solder the reflux cooler inside the "column", so to change it (if it’s too small) would be very hard to do.

Reflux condenser
- Tubing size where reflux condenser are going to be in is 35mm.
- feed tubing (from main column with vapors into 35mm “upper column”) is 12mm.
- It must be able to do full reflux
The kittle runs on 1000w

Product cooler
The one I have on my today is alright but I would like to make it smaller (in height) but more effective cooler. ( my current liebieg have outer pipe 220x22mm inner 12mm)
- Incoming pipe is 12mm

A design plan so you see the basics of a FOA (this is not the one I’m building)
link: http://bryggforum.nu/viewtopic.php?t=12427

So, does anyone have any idea how to do this?
I am not a complete idiot, some parts are missing....
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Re: How to, product cooler and reflux condenser

Postby Zombie » Fri Jan 10, 2014 12:06 am

This MAY help... I use a closed loop cooling system on a straight pot still. There is an air conditioner evaporator mounted inside a chest freezer that is the "heart" of this set up. The coolant in the system is chilled to 27* F, and doesn't really even have to flow for the first hour of distillation. When I start to produce vapor I run the coolant for approx. 30-40 seconds to fill my liebig, and wait for that to begin to warm (about 45-60 min.). Then I can run the coolant at about the same rate as the output. Just barley flowing.

I guess I am trying to say if you lower your coolant temp you may be able to reduce the size of your condensers.

One issue I saw with the output side of the plans.. There is a vapor lock (loop) just before the end of the output. That will produce back pressure, and surging. You really don't want either of those to happen. It will affect your internal temps., and splash your product on output. I tried that once, and pulled the pieces off in a few minuets of running.

It will be a very cool looking rig tho. I like it.

Ps The one issue with running below freezing coolant temp is condensation... That is why there is really (almost) no flow thru the system. It MUST be held to a trickle or you will get water condensate inside your output condenser. Hope this helps some.

I may need to be "put down" soon.
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Re: How to, product cooler and reflux condenser

Postby jokkman » Fri Jan 10, 2014 1:47 am

@Zombie tks for you input :-)
it's by default design to have a "vapor lock", FOA is design to works with "back pressure"
Totally i may get 2-3dl forshot+head from a 25litre mash, that’s all, and then i get my "heart" :-)

I was wondering about something like this, with 2 or more layers for the “reflux”.... ?
spole_cirkel.jpg
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I am not a complete idiot, some parts are missing....
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Re: How to, product cooler and reflux condenser

Postby Zombie » Fri Jan 10, 2014 4:00 am

It looks like they use 2 liebigs. One for output, and one for reflux. Wouldn't that be easiest? I don't see where you could install the coils you posted.

A small liebig could be used at the top of the column with a chiller system like i use. I just don't know enough about column stilling to give a definitive answer. I am interested to see where this goes... Hopefully someone here has experience with what you are doing, and can help.

I may need to be "put down" soon.
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Re: How to, product cooler and reflux condenser

Postby jokkman » Fri Jan 10, 2014 5:16 am

@Zombie tks again for you input
link to a FAT-FOA: http://jokkmokk.biz/foa/XL-FOA_beskrivning.pdf
(this isn't the one I'm going to build, just a ref to a FAT-FOA)

on page1, inside tubing nr4.
Is where i want to install the reflux coil.
nr3, isn't going to be there (it's the reflux liebig today)

Why is I’m aiming to install a reflux inside tubing nr4?
I also going to put some kind of "sight glass" opening on the "upper side" of nr4 so I can fill the "upper part" of the “column” (nr4) with SPP, and because of that I don’t want the "reflux coil" to come in contact with the SPP.
If I use the "default one" (nr3 liebig in link) it will "cool down" the SPP and that isn't going to improve SPP function.

Nr4 going to be 35mm (diameter), 500-600mm long, Should I go for a “mini coldfinger” version?

The liebig in the link is very “oversized” for that FAT-FOA.
It’s hard to adjust the water flow because it’s using so little water, the outgoing “water beam” is not more than 3 “matches” thick!

Hope this explain what I'm aiming for?
Sorry for the “gramma”. English isn't my native language, I'm Swedish ;-)
I am not a complete idiot, some parts are missing....
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Re: How to, product cooler and reflux condenser

Postby Zombie » Fri Jan 10, 2014 10:05 am

I understand your Sweenglish better than most understand me.

I understand you want better control... The top of that column connects thru to the top cross piece, and that area most have an effect on the output. I imagine you have to know the dynamics involved there in a properly tuned FOA in order to replicate that action with another type of condenser.

You should be able to calculate the amount of cooling with a tuned Liebeg, and replicate that with the surface area of another type condenser. Those wound coils are cool but it may take alot of them to do what a cold finger can do in less space. Plus you are adding packing that will change the dynamics of the pipe. It sounds like you either need a simulation program or lots of trial, and error to re tune that rig.

I am working on a similar project so I can relate to what you are doing, and wish you well. Hopefully a smart guy will chime in to help.
Sometimes we just like to change things up! Smuts aldrig dör
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