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Testing Masceration V's Infusion Gin

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Testing Masceration V's Infusion Gin

Postby the Doctor » Fri May 10, 2013 8:20 pm

We are ready to start to test our new gin... I have tried both masceration and infusion gins in the past but over the next few weeks we will be trying both styles in a side by side test. Next week I just have to get a pre order for a super pure vodka for the local art museum who have ordered a case of one off, 46% heart of hearts vodka for an event. then we are starting our new gin tests. It may take a bit of time but the aim is to find a gin which will become our signature gin.
I will keep you all informed, and thanks to Stubb's for the chance to try the gin basket. once we nail it I will shoot a video and share the method.
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Re: Testing Masceration V's Infusion Gin

Postby Jaybird » Fri May 10, 2013 9:08 pm

Looking forward to this unfolding Doc. I was talking to Zymurgy Bob the other day when he was at the store and he was talking about how he does his Gin using the maceration method and it really sparked my interest...
Any way we are going to see your recipe when its all said and done?

Good luck!

Cheers
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Re: Testing Masceration V's Infusion Gin

Postby Brendan » Sat May 11, 2013 1:02 am

Sounds great Doc, I am very interested to hear your results from this :handgestures-thumbupright:

I have a feeling, that the best Gin will come from a combination of macerating certain ingredients, while infusing others...

Maybe you can add that to you experiment for another test sample for comparison :grin:
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Re: Testing Masceration V's Infusion Gin

Postby Bushman » Sat May 11, 2013 1:18 am

I have tried infusion with gin and have not been happy with my results. It's better than some commercial but not great. It also comes across a bit cloudy. Will be interested in your results as my son likes gin.

Doc, how are you defining the difference as many think of this as the same process. I am thinking your definition is infusion would be like steeping using a form of heat or other means such as ultra sonic without boiling where as macerating would be soaking in alcohol.
I started my liquid diet and so far it seems to be working! I've already lost two days.

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Re: Testing Masceration V's Infusion Gin

Postby Bushman » Sat May 11, 2013 5:19 am

I have tried infusion with gin and have not been happy with my results. It's better than some commercial but not great. It also comes across a bit cloudy. Will be interested in your results as my son likes gin.

Doc, how are you defining the difference as many think of this as the same process. I am thinking your definition is infusion would be like steeping using a form of heat or other means such as ultra sonic without boiling where as macerating would be soaking in alcohol. Another definition I have heard is infusion is like large chunks or whole fruit as apposed to macerate meaning to smash up and add to liquid.
I started my liquid diet and so far it seems to be working! I've already lost two days.

"24 hours in a day, 24 beers in a case. Coincidence? I think not."
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Re: Testing Masceration V's Infusion Gin

Postby DAD » Sat May 11, 2013 5:44 am

I create gin by maceration (ingredients steeped in high proof neutral for about a week), then filtered, to create an essence we add by drops, to 45 proof neutral.

We have made many maceration's to get the one we like. The list of ingredients hasn't changed much, but the ratios have. And you can't test, or I can't, by tasting the raw maceration. Wife says she can...go figure...

Now the end essence, it is in a hollowed place! Then to mix, quart of neutral, teaspoon of essence, two slivers of lemon peel!

My hat is off to the guys who can do this "in distillation" and get a good or repeatable product!

I don't think many/any of the commercial producers do it in distillation. In fact I think I've read where the mass producers don't even do their own neutral production.
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Re: Testing Masceration V's Infusion Gin

Postby the Doctor » Sat May 11, 2013 11:55 am

Sorry if I was not clear I am trying a side by side comparison of Vapour infusion versus maceration...I forgot to say that the infusion method was via vapour...oops.
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Re: Testing Masceration V's Infusion Gin

Postby troglodyte » Sat May 11, 2013 5:19 pm

Hi Doc, I find with vapour infusion your botanicals go a lot further than if you were to do a maceration then distil that. To avoid the cloudiness others speak of discard a given amount of what you first collect as this is rich with oils.
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Re: Testing Masceration V's Infusion Gin

Postby BadAssBass » Sat May 11, 2013 6:08 pm

Very interested in what you find Doc. I've been looking for a good write up of the results of both methods.
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Re: Testing Masceration V's Infusion Gin

Postby DuckofDeath » Sun May 12, 2013 7:22 am

I watched a great video of how monkey 47 is made. They macerate the botanicals and pitch them in the still for the boil. They also have a separate gin basket in the vapor path for additional and different botanicals.
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Re: Testing Masceration V's Infusion Gin

Postby the Doctor » Sun May 12, 2013 8:59 am

Now that does sound interesting Duck...kind of the best of both worlds.
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Re: Testing Masceration V's Infusion Gin

Postby Brendan » Mon May 13, 2013 2:12 am

the Doctor wrote:Now that does sound interesting Duck...kind of the best of both worlds.
Doc


That's what my previous post was meaning :handgestures-thumbupright:
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Re: Testing Masceration V's Infusion Gin

Postby Zymurgy Bob » Tue May 14, 2013 2:10 am

DAD wrote:I create gin by maceration (ingredients steeped in high proof neutral for about a week), then filtered, to create an essence we add by drops, to 45 proof neutral.

We have made many maceration's to get the one we like. The list of ingredients hasn't changed much, but the ratios have. And you can't test, or I can't, by tasting the raw maceration. Wife says she can...go figure...

Now the end essence, it is in a hollowed place! Then to mix, quart of neutral, teaspoon of essence, two slivers of lemon peel!

My hat is off to the guys who can do this "in distillation" and get a good or repeatable product!

I don't think many/any of the commercial producers do it in distillation. In fact I think I've read where the mass producers don't even do their own neutral production.

That's pretty much how I do it, and I love my gin. I hadn't even considered tasting the maceration, although I once drank some of the essence itself by mistake. Whoof! I think even my shadow smelled like gin.

EDIT: Oh, filtered! I missed that part. I distill my maceration into an essence concentrate.
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Re: Testing Masceration V's Infusion Gin

Postby myles » Tue May 14, 2013 5:27 am

the Doctor wrote:Now that does sound interesting Duck...kind of the best of both worlds.
Doc


I have heard about folks trying this with the hard barks and root type botanicals in the boiler and the lighter peels and herbs in the basket. Off course I believe Bombay Sapphire only runs 1 botanical at a time, and gets the final product by blending.
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Re: Testing Masceration V's Infusion Gin

Postby DAD » Tue May 14, 2013 7:30 am

Filtered...I filter the solids out with a paper coffee filter, not carbon...

The liquid is very dark brown and strong tasting.

When mixed with neutral, it gives it a nice yellow tint. The tint helps remind me what's in the bottle.
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Re: Testing Masceration V's Infusion Gin

Postby Otago Elvis » Tue Mar 24, 2015 8:02 am

How did this pan out folks?

Was there a verdict?
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Re: Testing Masceration V's Infusion Gin

Postby just sayin' » Tue Mar 24, 2015 9:34 am

Doc's Silver Medal at the San Francisco Show! Just saw the post today. Again, congratulations, Doc. Well done! Must be great stuff, I would love to taste it!
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Re: Testing Masceration V's Infusion Gin

Postby the Doctor » Tue Mar 24, 2015 11:46 am

Thanks JS we are still in a state of shock.
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Re: Testing Masceration V's Infusion Gin

Postby DAD » Fri Apr 10, 2015 12:35 pm

CONGRATULATIONS......
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Re: Testing Masceration V's Infusion Gin

Postby Otago Elvis » Sat Sep 12, 2015 9:35 am

Otago Elvis wrote:How did this pan out folks?

Was there a verdict?


bump :smile:
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Re: Testing Masceration V's Infusion Gin

Postby the Doctor » Sat Sep 12, 2015 11:33 am

well the tests for a new Gin style proceed...the results that are clear is that vapour infusion is the best way of building the gin style we like here at Dobson's...but masceration is a great way to build unique spirits for use in Liqueurs for instance we always have rose, orange, clove, lavender and elderflower tinctures which we can add for profiling the gin for cocktails. The latest research is to find alternative sources for the chemical make up of some of the main ingredients...we have recently worked out a way of extracting the terpene pinene from sumac and have successfully used it to replace the juniper pinene...playing with the genetic variants of the botanicals is proving to be a promising path.
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Re: Testing Masceration V's Infusion Gin

Postby Otago Elvis » Sat Sep 12, 2015 3:43 pm

Yep. As i thought.

As long as it results in a good drop, it matters not as to the method.

Cheers mate
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Re: Testing Masceration V's Infusion Gin

Postby the Doctor » Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:57 pm

Elvis the case for vapour infusion is undeniably strong...but there are times ...mostly when we want to extract small quantities of a single botanical that it is not worth doing a run for the volume we want...I still think that vapour infuuion is superior, just not worth doing for a few litres of tincture.
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Re: Testing Masceration V's Infusion Gin

Postby wiifm » Mon Oct 12, 2015 9:57 am

the Doctor wrote:...we have recently worked out a way of extracting the terpene pinene from sumac and have successfully used it to replace the juniper pinene...

Hi Doc - are you saying your sumac gin was made without juniper?
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Re: Testing Masceration V's Infusion Gin

Postby Bushman » Wed Apr 13, 2016 3:19 am

I know this is an old thread but in it I asked Doc about how he defines Maceration vs Infusion. Well the subject came up again at the ADI conference in the condo I shared with Kapea. I also looked on the glossary at several forums for their definition and could not find one. The definition that makes the most sense to me came from "Diffords Guide to Descerning Drinks":

Infusion simply involves immersing nuts, spices, herbs, or fruit in and leaving to soak until desired flavor has been drawn out. The same applies to Maceration but as implies the botanicals first being infused are broken up, sliced, diced to expose larger surface areas.


I think that we might add that a gin/vapor basket serves the same purpose but instead of immersing the botanicals in liquid they are infused by the vapors passing through.

Anyone want to add to this or have a better way of stating it?
I started my liquid diet and so far it seems to be working! I've already lost two days.

"24 hours in a day, 24 beers in a case. Coincidence? I think not."
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Re: Testing Masceration V's Infusion Gin

Postby the Doctor » Wed Apr 13, 2016 9:51 am

wiifm wrote:
the Doctor wrote:...we have recently worked out a way of extracting the terpene pinene from sumac and have successfully used it to replace the juniper pinene...

Hi Doc - are you saying your sumac gin was made without juniper?

after reading the legal definition we decided to add a small ( and i mean small) amount of juniper...but almost all the pinene is extracted from the sumac.
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Re: Testing Masceration V's Infusion Gin

Postby Bushman » Fri Apr 15, 2016 1:55 am

I found these notes I took at the 2014 ADI conference on gin. Not sure if I have ever posted them on this forum or not. The seminar I attended was conducted by Darek Bell and Corsair Distillery. After your last post Doc I thought the part on recommended proportions was interesting.

Definition from Internet:
A clear alcoholic spirit distilled from grain or malt and flavored with juniper berries.

Botanical Infusion & Production Techniques
Common Gin Ingredients
Angelica root
Coriander
Grains of paradise
Bay leaf
Cubeb
Juniper berry
Cardamom
Fennel
Lavender
Citrus peel
Ginger
Orris root

Other ingredients that can be added
Cinnamon
licorice
bitter almond
bitter & sweet orange peel
lemon peel
nutmeg
savory
chamomile

Recommended proportions
x = Juniper berry
x/2 = coriander
x/10 = angelica cassia, cinnamon, licorice, bitter almond, grains of paradise
x/100 = bitter & sweet orange peel, lemon peel, ginger orris root, cardamon, nutmeg, savory, chamomile

Vapor vs Maceration
Problems with Vapor basket (Gin)
❶ Stuck chamber
❷ Puking the vapor

Problems with Maceration
❶ Over cooking botanicals
❷ Off flavors
❸ Clean-up

If your not happy with your product a couple things to consider (by no means a complete list).
❶ Quality of the botanicals
❷ Imbalance of flavors (see recommended proportions above)
❸ Problems listed above with either vapor or maceration process.

As you can see by the possible ingredients listed above you can come up with a lot of different flavors of gin depending on what you choose to put in it.
I started my liquid diet and so far it seems to be working! I've already lost two days.

"24 hours in a day, 24 beers in a case. Coincidence? I think not."
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