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Experienced AG ppl - validate this vid?

Experienced AG ppl - validate this vid?

Postby bigfoot » Wed Feb 24, 2016 9:10 pm

Hi guys,

So I've put down a few ujsms and I'm far from confined by just playing with partials.
However, always wanting to improve I've started looking at the starch-enzyme process.

Could those in the know, please watch this video and make comment? It's one I found and I think it explains it well but I do have ? - like why does the person in the video allie the mash to become so dry, only to add water later? Is it because of his pot size?
Also - he says he strains off all the mash and only ferments the liquid at the end of the process, is this generally correct or would you ferment the entire mash?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-pU82F60DZk
Thanks in advance for any feedback.

Simon
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Re: Experienced AG ppl - validate this vid?

Postby S-Cackalacky » Thu Feb 25, 2016 2:28 am

I've only done a few AG mashes, so I'm sure others will have better answers. I think his process was legitimate, but it could probably be improved. The pot is too small making it difficult to stir and manage the volumn. The grind of the corn was a bit large. A finer grind like a coarse corn mill would allow for a better cook and a better conversion. Upping the size of the pot and the use of an electric stirrer (drill + paint mixer) would make it a bit easier. Adding a small amount of malted barley during the heat up could also help to keep it from getting overly thick.

I didn't see where he added a lot of water at the end. He said he used some extra water to help rinse out the pot. Most of the liquidity of the mash comes from the conversion. It will naturally get more liquid as the starch is converted to sugar.

Fermenting on-the-grain or off-the-grain is a matter of choice. For the few I've done, I fermented on the grain. Some folks believe it adds more grain flavor. It may also allow the enzymes to continue working on the starches left in the grain pieces during the fermentation process. This may also extend the time it takes the ferment to finish.

If you decide to ferment off-the-grain, you would probably want to sparge the grain bed after extracting the wort. This is simply a process of washing any remaining sugar from the mash. Maybe this is where the added water comes in that you spoke of. With the on-the-grain method, you could just squeeze the grains of any remaining wash after the ferment and skip the sparging - the amount of alcohol extracted would be negligible.

There are other ways to do AG mashing besides the traditional method described in that video. I'm sure you should be able to find other methods in this forum and others. There's liquid enzymes, steeping, direct steam cooking, and probably others.
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Re: Experienced AG ppl - validate this vid?

Postby bigfoot » Thu Feb 25, 2016 8:07 am

Thanks for the reply.
I don't think I've seen another vid where the mash became so thick during cooking. I initially wondered if he actually boiled the mash dry...if this consistency is required, then it must be very critical to monitor water levels during cooking the mash.
I've never heard those terms fermenting on/off the grain - makes sense. Cheers.

It's no wonder AG cooks go bigger with their hardware...it appears a lot easier with larger gear.
Cheers
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Re: Experienced AG ppl - validate this vid?

Postby S-Cackalacky » Thu Feb 25, 2016 9:51 am

The main reason for the cook going dry is because the grain soaks up the water as it cooks (gelatinizes). Surely there is some dehydration during the boil, but the main reason for the thickening is absorption and swelling of the starches. He may have also crowded more grain into the pot just to get a larger quantity that he could then dilute down with more water to make a larger wash. The normal grain to water ratio is about 2 lbs. grain to 1 gallon of water (excuse my non-metric measures). That ratio would get you into the 1.060 ballpark if the conversion goes well.

If you want an easier way of doing it, look into high temp enzymes (SEBStar-htl and SEBamyl-gl) and a no boil steeping process. It greatly simplifies the protocol. Some folks are also starting to use direct steam injection using their still boiler to generate steam directly into the fermenting vessel. In that case the cooking, mashing, and fermentation all take place in the same vessel.
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Re: Experienced AG ppl - validate this vid?

Postby bigfoot » Thu Feb 25, 2016 12:34 pm

One other Q - a lot of moonshine recipes and even quite a few other distillery recipes still utilise at least some sugar in with the grain. Would it be fair to call their products partial or AG? I specifically refer to a lot of the bourbons, southern style drinks using a high percentage of corn. Even ole Merv popcorn Sutton and T Smith, old smokey, use sugar in their mashing process. Surely, if they were getting good conversions, they would have to be very careful with sugar quantities-or risk killing their yeast with too higher abv?
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Re: Experienced AG ppl - validate this vid?

Postby Zymurgy Bob » Thu Feb 25, 2016 6:51 pm

I've done a lot of fermenting off the grain (with barley, every allgrain beer brewer does), because the liquid is easily separated easily from mashed barley.

Corn, for a couple of reasons (at least) is a whole different subject. If you have enough corn in your liquid to get a reasonable wash ABV, and after you cook that corn to ~185F to gelatinize the corn starch crystals (necessary with corn, but not with barley), the resulting thick goop is almost like oatmeal. While there are some trick to make separating the liquid from that corn goop, they are still a pain in the ass. For this reason, American corn whiskey distillers both ferment and distill on the grain, bu distilling on the grain takes specially-heated stills, which most of us don't have.

The best solution I know for hobbyists is Pint-O-Shine's high temperature enzymes, so that cooked corn doesn't become goop. See the video.
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Re: Experienced AG ppl - validate this vid?

Postby S-Cackalacky » Thu Feb 25, 2016 11:55 pm

Using those same enzymes, you could also do a no-cook steeping method to get the grains gelatinized and converted. If your still uses a keg boiler, you can use the boiler to bring the water to a full boil. Add the boiling temp strike water to the grain (corn?) and then add the first enzyme (SEBstar HTL). The boiling water will cool to around 190 dF when added to the grain. Insulate the mashing/fermenting vessel and allow it to sit for an hour or more - giving a good stir every 15 minutes or so. When the temp drops to around 150 dF, adjust the PH and add the second enzyme (SEBamyl GL). Allow the temp to drop to yeast pitching temp and pitch the yeast. To use this method and get good conversion, you'll need to have the corn milled to a fairly fine consistency.

I'm not sure how available these enzymes are in OZ or NZ. Unless things have changed, Pintoshine doesn't ship outside the US. It's been a long while since I ordered and that policy may have changed.
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Re: Experienced AG ppl - validate this vid?

Postby hudsonbay distillers » Thu Nov 16, 2017 11:47 pm

pinto shines enzymes are top notch in my mind , and he does ship out of the US , we live in northern canada and order from him all the time . we add enzyme to our mash even if were using malted grain jus because its cheep insurance of a good conversion and with the high temp enzyme added to the mash it never gets thick and hard to stir .
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Re: Experienced AG ppl - validate this vid?

Postby crow » Fri Nov 17, 2017 2:41 am

This is another example , its a semi passive mash, I think similar to how Doc use to do it. This one is also by pintoshine using malt rather than enzymes. Check out how fast this malt works

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Re: Experienced AG ppl - validate this vid?

Postby Rockchucker » Fri Nov 17, 2017 1:28 pm

Pints method simply works. I’m always scared not to convert so use more malt plus enzymes to ensure conversion. Proper temps are absolutely critical and one reason.I like the high temp enzymes, bigger window of opportunity for proper conversion.
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Re: Experienced AG ppl - validate this vid?

Postby Rockchucker » Fri Nov 17, 2017 1:31 pm

Also anything Z-bob posts is gold and I highly recommend his book. http://www.kelleybarts.com/zymurgy-bob- ... e-spirits/
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Re: Experienced AG ppl - validate this vid?

Postby hudsonbay distillers » Sat Nov 18, 2017 12:06 am

totally agree the high temp enzymes are priceless but i hope the price doesnt go up lol . sherman videos are very simple and easy to follow very nice guy to learn from . we find that with using the high temp enzyme right from heat up we never have agitator problems , trying to stir to thick of mash nor do we have to worry about gelatinization temp getting to high and denature the enzyme .
thanks for the link for the book i cant wait to track it down and read ,if it is anything like his posts its well worth the read .
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Re: Experienced AG ppl - validate this vid?

Postby Swedish Pride » Sun Nov 19, 2017 12:30 am

Rockchucker wrote:Also anything Z-bob posts is gold and I highly recommend his book. http://www.kelleybarts.com/zymurgy-bob- ... e-spirits/

I recommend that he finishes his second book already .

I do most of my all grains the same, boil water add grains add enzymes, add yeast when cooled off
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Re: Experienced AG ppl - validate this vid?

Postby Zymurgy Bob » Sun Nov 19, 2017 7:54 am

Jeez, Pride, I never figured you for a nag. I'm writin' my li'l pencils down to nubs already.
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Re: Experienced AG ppl - validate this vid?

Postby Swedish Pride » Sun Nov 19, 2017 8:13 am

Zymurgy Bob wrote:Jeez, Pride, I never figured you for a nag. I'm writin' my li'l pencils down to nubs already.


so i guess your typing this with your toes???
no get back to it :teasing-whipyellow: :teasing-whipyellow: :icon-lol:
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Re: Experienced AG ppl - validate this vid?

Postby hudsonbay distillers » Sun Nov 19, 2017 8:58 am

that made my day lol
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Re: Experienced AG ppl - validate this vid?

Postby Zymurgy Bob » Mon Nov 20, 2017 12:13 pm

The lash! Oh, not the lash!
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