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Oak Ageing Discussion, Including Oaked Neutral(split topic)

Re: Oak Ageing Discussion, Including Oaked Neutral(split top

Postby Zombie » Sun Sep 28, 2014 2:32 am

Clear vs. colored glass is the only thing I can comment on (wont touch American politics).

I'm sure you know the dark glass simply inhibits light radiation from affecting the contents. Just store your collection in a dark corner, and it's a non issue.I keep my jars in the boxes they came in but I never have anything around long enough to make a difference.

I also like the idea of smaller staves and more of them in each bottle. More contact area = more flavor = quicker.

I may need to be "put down" soon.
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Re: Oak Ageing Discussion, Including Oaked Neutral(split top

Postby Pete V » Sun Sep 28, 2014 8:25 am

Iron absorbs infra red in glass. It's why real plate glass or low E glass makes for a lousy solar collector. Iron and chrome are what makes those green bottles. I do like the notion of being able to see the color of the spirits. I find cobalt blue bottles to be really peculiar although easy to make. I'll try some straight clear ones once I have something to put in them which will be awhile unless the distiller down in the village wants to try some stuff out with his own product. Given what I read in another thread about temperature swings affecting the aging, I should probably store the stuff on the stairs going into the basement.

What I like the idea of is no staves at all but having charred oak drifting about in the swill. I think I see from other threds not to overdo that.
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Re: Oak Ageing Discussion, Including Oaked Neutral(split top

Postby Zombie » Sun Sep 28, 2014 2:43 pm

If you have an attic or crawl space in the rafters that would give you much higher temp swings. That's what you want variation.

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Re: Oak Ageing Discussion, Including Oaked Neutral(split top

Postby res » Wed Oct 01, 2014 12:29 am

Pete V wrote:"It is easy to be fearless with science on your side."

Ah welll clearly you don't involve yourself in American politics...

I think I've read this thread carefully and I have some questions about it. The first thing I have taken note of is whether an oak barrel is necessary. That immediately leads me to the size of the barrel. I read in a book on the subject that the surface area of the charred oak relative to the quantity of the Whisky is the critical factor in oak aging and that a very small barrel can age very rapidly while a barrel containing 40-50 gallons will take a minimum of 3 years just because of that ratio.

So, I got some very small barrels that look smashing on my St Bernards for a first go at this based on this argument as well as my immediate interest in whether I might be producing hazardous materials and should find out sooner than later. So, I would like opinions based in that "science stuff" on the subject.

At the same time, I have gobs of Oak. We mill our own lumber ( not staves) and firewood here on the tree farm and can cut pieces in any sawn configuration and then can charr it in the convenient reheating furnace for the glass. The charred biscuits I can make in every sawn method imaginable as well as length. I can most likely make some glass bottles and dump oak into them for aging and am wondering whether they do indeed need to be a dark color, which is quite manageable or can they be clear which lets you see how the coloration process is going. Finally, about how much Oak per liter, or gallon or quart- whatever. I assume the importance in the oak is surface area, not weight. Getting it through the neck of the bottle is something else again.

So, a number of questions there that I would love to pursue here. If the answer is elsewhere, I apologize in advance yet again.



I'm by no means an expert on spirit maturation but I would suggest there is a important difference between "oaking" and "ageing". A small barrel will certainly impart the oak flavors much more quickly than a large one however this is only one aspect to the ageing process as I see it.
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Re: Oak Ageing Discussion, Including Oaked Neutral(split top

Postby res » Wed Oct 01, 2014 12:52 am

the Doctor wrote: I just barrelled for my sons to have after I shuffle of this mortal coil, so it is marked to be opened 25 years hence in 2040.
Doc


Your sons are very lucky, hope they like whisky ;-) I suppose even if they don't it would represent a pretty nice nest egg to have stashed away.

I'm very curious to know what percent of the initial volume you would except to remain after that time or if you plan on maintaining one. Will you let the angles continue to drink there fill until there bottled?
Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts.
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Re: Oak Ageing Discussion, Including Oaked Neutral(split top

Postby Zymurgy Bob » Wed Oct 01, 2014 11:54 am

While oaking and aging are not exactly the same thing, oaking is probably the most important component of aging, especially in bourbon, which gets most of its flavor from the oak char. Cold evaporation (read angels' share, easily simulated with large-volume aeration)), oxidation of oak compounds (also easily done with an airstone and O2), dilution, and lastly, time are the other major components of aging, and time, all by itself, is probably the most subtle.

Whatever your oak delivery system, staves, chips, dominos, or splints, oak until you get the color appropriate to whatever you're making, and then do the aeration and oxidation. You can leave the spirit on oak for much longer (and I usually do), but the quantity and depleted state of the oak should be such that oak compound extraction is no longer fast, if that makes sense.
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Re: Oak Ageing Discussion, Including Oaked Neutral(split top

Postby Zombie » Thu Oct 02, 2014 12:37 am

Quote Z.Bob:
" the quantity and depleted state of the oak should be such that oak compound extraction is no longer fast, if that makes sense."

That is the first time the re-purposing of barrels has made sense to me. I never understood exactly why Scotch makers/Bourbon makers would use someone else's barrels. Now I get it.

I may need to be "put down" soon.
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Re: Oak Ageing Discussion, Including Oaked Neutral(split top

Postby JayD » Sun Nov 23, 2014 8:03 am

Here is a graph on ageing in oak barrels relevant to barrel size, I hope it helps with the discussion.

agingguide.png






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Re: Oak Ageing Discussion, Including Oaked Neutral(split top

Postby Zombie » Sun Nov 23, 2014 11:06 am

Where did you find that?
Actually it makes perfect sense if the numbers are correct (which I expect they are).
Surface area to mass is the key. If you follow that down the rabbit hole then you can figure the surface area of staves/dominoes/chips. The issue then becomes one of end grain vs. straight grain. BUT the chart is empirically pointing towards straight grain woods

Once again that rabbit hole is covered in mist (grain structure of the wood). As an honorary Irishman I say F the wood, and drink Potin. ( I think that's what I drink but I call it Scotch)

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