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Rum & Dunder revisited

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Rum & Dunder revisited

Postby Harry » Tue Mar 05, 2013 2:09 pm

In some distilleries, sugar syrup is used as
the starting material. The syrup is prepared by
heat evaporation of sugar cane juice after it has
been partially inverted to avoid crystallization
of the sucrose. It has a final sugar content of
about 80%w/v and is diluted with water to
100-150 g/litre of sugar before fermentation.
Some distilleries use freshly extracted sugar
cane juice which has a sugar content of about
10-15%w/v. This is widely used in Brazil where
the fermented, distilled product is specifically
known as “ cachaca” (Faria et al.,2003).

The literature reports widespread use of
dunder in rum production. Dunder is the liquid
residue obtained from the distillation vessels
after distillation of the fermented product
(Kampen, 1975). It is enriched in heat inactivated
microbial cells, principally yeasts, and the
contents extracted from them. It is acidic and
rich in nutrients and, used directly, it should
be sterile. It is mixed with molasses or syrup
at proportions of 20-50%v/v to decrease the
requirements for dilution water, to assist with
acidification of the molasses or syrup, and
to provide nutrients to encourage microbial
growth during fermentation. If it is not used
directly, and stored, it becomes contaminated
with microorganisms that can impact on the
fermentation. In some cases, deliberate storage
and ageing of dunder has been conducted to
encourage the development of a wild microbial
flora. Such dunder gives a rum with a heavier
flavor (I’Anson, 1971).



Source:
Distilled Spirits
New Horizons: Energy, Environmental and Enlightenment

Edited by
G.M. Walker1
P.S. Hughes2

1Professor of Zymology, Yeast Research Group, Food Division, School of
Contemporary Sciences, University of Abertay Dundee, Dundee DD1 1HG
Scotland, UK; 2Director, International Centre for Brewing and Distilling,
Heriot-Watt University
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Re: Rum & Dunder revisited

Postby Dfitz » Tue Mar 05, 2013 3:38 pm

"In some cases, deliberate storage and ageing of dunder has been conducted to encourage the development of a wild microbial flora. Such dunder gives a rum with a heavier flavor".

I've got about 25 gallons frozen solid right now stored in 7 gallon sealed buckets . I opened the lid on a couple last week and there's a mold layer forming across the top, frozen as it is. Ain't that just the way it goes. I made rum and now have plenty of dunder, but now I have plenty of rum and don't need the dunder.... :lol:
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Re: Rum & Dunder revisited

Postby Dfitz » Wed Mar 06, 2013 1:23 am

Considering long term storage, how long will dunder remain effective if refrigerated through the dog days of summer, or is it better left to mother nature? My shed remains relatively cool in the summer.
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Re: Rum & Dunder revisited

Postby Moscca » Fri Mar 22, 2013 12:05 pm

Next week I'll travel to the interior of Honduras to try to buy that cane syrup, here called ' miel de caña '.
Will send some pics of the trip.



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Re: Rum & Dunder revisited

Postby Moscca » Sat Mar 23, 2013 12:48 pm

Last rum ferment (80% molasses - 20% panela) I didn't use dunder because I thought that there is already enough flavor.
I put the panela for the nutrients. But my pH was 6.4, anyway started it and it goes exellent.
Next time I will use dunder just to bring the pH down (5.5), didn´t think of something so obvious. :?:


Thanks Harry !


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Re: Rum & Dunder revisited

Postby Jaybird » Sun Mar 31, 2013 3:21 pm

So are you guys using your "aged" Dunder in your ferment or adding it directly to the still? I have read "aged" dunder that has the mold cap on it needs to be frozen first as boiling it will not kill off the bacteria "Clostridium Saccharobutyricum" ( say that 3x fast) which is the desired bacteria used for aging dunder.

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Re: Rum & Dunder revisited

Postby Moscca » Mon Apr 01, 2013 1:23 am

:confusion-confused:

So boiling or freezing ?



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Re: Rum & Dunder revisited

Postby Harry » Mon Apr 01, 2013 5:25 am

Got this recently from a member on Yahoo Distillers (thanks Bill).

Photocopy of pages 145 & 146 from the Distiller's Manual of old (now defunct) Seagram's Distillery Canada.


Molasses Dilution, Settling and Fermentation. Molasses constitutes the
only raw material for the production of rum. The basic steps for mashing
and fermenting molasses for the manufacture of industrial alcohol are
equally applicable in the case of rum. The major difference lies in the
fact that one additional processing step, referred to as "molasses settling"
is called for in the production of rum. Molasses settling involves Basically
the settling out of calcium sulphate and other undissolved solids through
the addition of sulphuric acid. Where settling is applied, raw molasses
is mashed in two distinct stages prior to fermentation. The first stage
entails the dilution of raw molasses to 60° Brix, and the heating of this
mash to a settling temperature of 190°F. Dilution and heating are
achieved by the addition of city water and high pressure steam, while
concentrated sulphuric acid is introduced to initiate dolid precipitation.
The resulting mash is pumped to a settling tank where it is allowed to
stand for a period of 48 hours. After this period a heavy sludge forms at
the bottom of the tank. The construction of the settling tank is quite
similar to that of the fermenter with few minor differences. The tank should
be as squat as possible to minimize settling time. The ratio of height to
diameter should be approximately 1:1. The bottom of the tank should

MOLASSES MASH TO PRODUCTS
Fig 62.png




be sloping as steeply as possible to facilitate the drainage of sludge. This
is usually achieved through a large diameter pipe, not less than 10" in
diameter, located at the lowest point of the incline and flush with the
bottom.

The settled molasses is removed through another pipe, extending a
few inches above the bottom of the tank so as to protrude over the level
of the sludge layer. This pipe is preferably located at the highest point of
the incline.

The specific gravity of 60° Brix molasses is about 1.28, and after
settling it is pumped back to the mixer where it is further diluted to 20°B
and its temperature adjusted to 90°F, before pumping to the fermenter.

Although quality requirements in the case of runs dictate this settling
of molasses prior to fermentation, it has been pointed out that settling may
be beneficial in the case of industrial alcohol as well. The motive behind
this argument is that unsettled molasses has a tendency to deposit a scale
or sludge on the sieve plates of the beer distillation column, which can
lead to plate blockage. This question is open to discussion and, where
settling tanks are available, it would be advantaveous to include settling
in the manufacture of industrial alcohol. Otherwise, frequent acid clean-
ups of the column after molasses distillations may prove to be more
economical than the outlay of capital called for in the purchase and
installation of settling equipment.

B. Rum Distillation. The distillation of molasses beer for the production
of rums is achieved through practically all the various types of distilling
equipment available, giving rise to a wide variety of rums (Fig. 62).
Depending upon the method of distillation, the following distinct types
of rum distillates are frequently encountered:

1. Coffey Still Rum
2. Pot Still Rum
3. Beer Still Rum
4. Continuous Still Rum
5. Aldehyde Rum
6. Batch Still Rum

The quality and characteristics of these rums vary from one still to
another. After aging, rums are dumped, reduced to 30 U.P. and filtered
through a pulp filter and an Alsop filter. The colour is adjusted by the
addition of caramel (Fig. 63).









- 146 -



Enjoy!
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Re: Rum & Dunder revisited

Postby Harry » Mon Apr 01, 2013 6:28 am

Waiting for someone to say "what's a Badger?"

@Mini
I posted the whiskey pages on my Distillers site. It too is very interesting. Particularly about rye use. Might help some folk make better product..

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Distillers/message/49145
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Re: Rum & Dunder revisited

Postby timmyjane » Mon Apr 01, 2013 7:31 am

Hey Harry-
What's a Badger? :confusion-confused:
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Re: Rum & Dunder revisited

Postby Harry » Mon Apr 01, 2013 7:34 am

minime wrote:
Harry wrote:Waiting for someone to say "what's a Badger?"


From the line drawing I'd guess it's a still of some sort?




Give that man a cee-gar. :grin:

"Badger" is a brand name. The Badger Manufacturing company in 1945 patented an "engine-driven vapor compression still for use in submarines to distil fresh water from sea water. See more here...

http://www.maritime.org/fleetsub/still/chap6.htm#6A




Badger X-1 cutaway.png
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Re: Rum & Dunder revisited

Postby outback frog » Sat Apr 06, 2013 9:08 pm

Obviously a must have for Everyone who owns a yacht...To water down their barrel strength rum :lol:
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Re: Rum & Dunder revisited

Postby Jaybird » Tue Apr 09, 2013 4:26 pm

Moscca wrote::confusion-confused:

So boiling or freezing ?



M.

Yeah M I am under the impression that you really don't want to ferment your "RUM" with the Clostridium Saccharobutyricum but you need it to infect the dunder to get the flavor profile out of the dunder your looking for. So you need to kill it off before you start a ferment using aged dunder. I am also under the impression that boiling it wont kill it. So freezing it is the only option. What I am wondering is, if boiling it in a pressure cooker would do it? 15PSI for 15 min I would think would raise the temp to the point it would kill it, but I am not sure.

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Re: Rum & Dunder revisited

Postby Casper » Mon Nov 21, 2016 9:24 am

I read that dunder bacterium works on the unfermentable sugars created by the refining boil.
Sacc But blows off the sugar plantation so in its absence I am trying Water Keffir crystals.
Dunder SB is said to work 31°-33°C and does not tolerate Ethanol above 5%ABV

so I will
1. Collect backset from the stripping run. This tends to be pH3.6
2. Add Keffir liquor. This matures 10-21 days max.
3. dilute my raw Molly to Bx 36° with the resulting " Dunder" but not adding more than would lower pH below 5.5

Having said that, a backset (rum strip waste) I made last year without Keffir crystals, with added CaCo3 to raise pH plus boiled true/lees. This stayed fresh and good thru an Irish winter and summer outdoors in a loosely sealed container. Just used it , seems to have slowed the ferment extending from the usual 3 days to 10
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