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Mashing with steam ...

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Mashing with steam ...

Postby Odin » Mon Jan 25, 2016 9:06 am

I am thinking of making a masher that works on direct steam injection. Put in the injector at an angle and I guess one gets all the turbulence needed ...

Regards, Odin.
"Great art is created only through diligent and painstaking effort to perfect and polish oneself." by Buddhist filosofer Daisaku Ikeda.
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Re: Mashing with steam ...

Postby jedneck » Mon Jan 25, 2016 11:22 am

Odin I mash with direct steam injection. I have yet to get turbulence to keep the whole mess moving, still hit it with the drill. This is on 15-25 gallon mashes using a 4500 watt internal element. With a 5500 it might get enuf turbulence.
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Re: Mashing with steam ...

Postby snowman_fs » Sat Feb 13, 2016 8:23 am

My boiler build is 90% complete. 5500w and going to have both injection and indirect coil options for the output.

My stretch goal for this project is enough turbulence during mashing with injection but the primary goal is to enable a one pot system. Cook, mash and still in one place; on the grain the whole way. No transferring!

I'll need to use the drill/mixer for chilling with the indirect coil but if I can make it that easy I will be happy no matter what.
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Re: Mashing with steam ...

Postby snowman_fs » Sun Feb 14, 2016 6:27 am

2016-02-13 12.10.30.jpg


The dipped handle on the pipe wrench at the bottom serves as the mockup 12" insertion depth of the 5500w element.

On top I have a Pt100 temperature probe, 0.125" steam orifice out to the right and a tee for the PRV as you goto the left. As you continue counterclockwise down the 1/2" steel tube there is another tee with a 0.020" orifice for the fill solenoid connection. The horizontal pipe has the level sensor inserted in the top of the big tee. At the other end of the horizontal pipe more 1/2" seamless tube to connect to the bottom of the boiler.
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Re: Mashing with steam ...

Postby S-Cackalacky » Sun Feb 14, 2016 6:57 am

Just a thought - haven't tried this and don't know if anyone else has. How about multiple steam injection tubes? Come off the boiler with 2(?) inch. At some point, use tees (or other) to split the 2" into 4 (or more) 3/4 or 1/2 inch tubes into the mash vessel and have them going in at distributed locations and terminating at different depths. The idea being, to provide a more even heat up.
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Re: Mashing with steam ...

Postby snowman_fs » Sun Feb 14, 2016 12:15 pm

I have no doubt we can induce effective agitation with direct injection. Food processors do it all the time. Running the numbers during my boiler build, 5500w of steam power will exit a 0.125" hole at 20 miles per hour. So I think it just becomes a question of power requirements. If it takes too much, then mechanical agitation is the more efficient method. Thickness of mash and vessel geometry become significant.
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Re: Mashing with steam ...

Postby Odin » Tue Feb 16, 2016 6:28 am

snowman_fs wrote:I have no doubt we can induce effective agitation with direct injection. Food processors do it all the time. Running the numbers during my boiler build, 5500w of steam power will exit a 0.125" hole at 20 miles per hour. So I think it just becomes a question of power requirements. If it takes too much, then mechanical agitation is the more efficient method. Thickness of mash and vessel geometry become significant.


That's what I am looking for: agitation! Working on a set-up with two injectors to create more of the whirlpool effect.

Regards, Odin.
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Re: Mashing with steam ...

Postby tenorbrew » Wed Feb 17, 2016 12:26 am

I used to do this when AG beer brewing. I had a single group commercial coffee machine.
I would mash using water water heated in an HLT and then maintain/step mash by clamping a reinforced hose to the steam arm of the coffee machine and sticking it in the mash.
It was rough and ready, and I would have to stir with a spoon to distributed heat, but it worked.
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Re: Mashing with steam ...

Postby bigfoot » Wed Feb 17, 2016 9:06 am

Odin wrote:
snowman_fs wrote:I have no doubt we can induce effective agitation with direct injection. Food processors do it all the time. Running the numbers during my boiler build, 5500w of steam power will exit a 0.125" hole at 20 miles per hour. So I think it just becomes a question of power requirements. If it takes too much, then mechanical agitation is the more efficient method. Thickness of mash and vessel geometry become significant.


That's what I am looking for: agitation! Working on a set-up with two injectors to create more of the whirlpool effect.

Regards, Odin.


Perhaps an injector placed just above the mash, pointing down at a 45 would induce and speed up a directional flow ?
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Re: Mashing with steam ...

Postby snowman_fs » Thu Feb 18, 2016 11:42 pm

Gravity and density differences need to be used as well as the convective forces. Trying to cause the typical "stir" or whirlpool with steam is hard because you are just trying to push goop around with the steam mass*speed; which is not working with convection forces. If steam is properly injected it should induce a fluid density difference in a pocket caused by the bubbles. That will let gravity do the work parallel to the convective currents also being created. Injecting low in the tank, angled downward and with enough velocity to create shear within the fluid are key.

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Re: Mashing with steam ...

Postby bigfoot » Fri Feb 19, 2016 2:02 am

Is the steam going to be significantly hotter than the goop? thus initially it will be imparting some cooking process, but the sparge temp being a fair bit cooler will no doubt condense the steam pretty quickly, so the more you steam it, the more water you will end up inadvertently adding? Which may be fine but the more water you add, the harder it will be for the steam to be effective...
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Re: Mashing with steam ...

Postby Odin » Fri Feb 19, 2016 6:24 am

Given a round masher, I am thinking of putting 2 injectors in. Above one another, and angled slightly downwards and diagonally. So in a ... 45 degree out of the wall.

Regards, Odin.
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Re: Mashing with steam ...

Postby Odin » Fri Feb 19, 2016 6:32 am

Like this ... entry point to one of the injectors.

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Re: Mashing with steam ...

Postby jedneck » Fri Feb 19, 2016 10:25 am

Odin,
I would also put them on opposite sides. I have tried one out let on a 30 gallon barrel and had very little agitation. I was only running 3000 watts. On the next mash I'm gonna try 4500.
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Re: Mashing with steam ...

Postby castle » Fri Feb 19, 2016 3:09 pm

I myself haven't delved into the steam world....yet ,but it is on my priority list!
I had a sort of silly idea to create a rotating steam wand possibly with fins on it similar to a spinning garden sprinkler. and let that stir the mash.
I don't know if the steam would provide enough force to overcome the viscosity of the mash though. :confusion-shrug:
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Re: Mashing with steam ...

Postby Odin » Sun Feb 21, 2016 6:15 am

Interested to hear how 4500 watts works. Especially on the agitation part, Jed! 3 kw for 30 gallons ... equals 1 kw per 10 gallons. I was thinking 500 gallons (a professional build), so that would need more than 50 KW. No problem I think I can get access to a 120 KW steam machine for testing. That would be like 2 1/2 the amount of your tests with 3 kw's, Jed.

Regards, Odin.
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Re: Mashing with steam ...

Postby Casper » Tue Nov 22, 2016 8:53 am

I ferment on grain, in bag. 200l
This is difficult to reach and hold mash temperatures... without steam.
Using partially converted grains (hot rolled flake) it is possible to start with water above 70°C, add flaked grain, include malt, maintain mash temps with steam for half an hour.
I found it sufficient to connect a 1.5kw wallpaper stripper to a 15mm copper wand. This has a T at the far end with holes drilled.
Some stirring with a paint mixer helps but is hardly needed since bubbles rise to the surface and the mash range is generous, 63°-69°
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